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Hyundai Ioniq 28kWh

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 12,030 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    September1 wrote: »
    He is right, I used to own EV and this effect is true - basically as marginal cost of doing extra journeys in EV is close to zero, then EV is used it more. When I had LEAF it would be doing 75% of miles in household, but now when we are back to ICE this split is about 55/45. It seems that EVs are a bit more economical for two car households.

    Same here.

    In our 2 car household we always just took our own cars when needed but now the EV is used as a first preference. Gone from 50/50 to about 75/25 at a rough guess.

    So, not only did we wipe out one full diesel bill but we are also reducing significantly the diesel bill on the second car and of course the resultant reduced maintenance on that 2nd car as well.

    EV is definitely well suited to 2 car households.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    KCross wrote: »
    EV is definitely well suited to 2 car households.

    That's ok. What I understood and find hilarious is that by having EV people not only do different split, they decided to completely change their commuting patterns (we used to drive both cars, now I give the wife a lift). And attribute the savings gained to driving EV only...

    That is really stretching it...


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,432 ✭✭✭September1


    grogi wrote: »
    That's ok. What I understood and find hilarious is that by having EV people not only do different split, they decided to completely change their commuting patterns (we used to drive both cars, now I give the wife a lift). And attribute the savings gained to driving EV only...

    That is really stretching it...

    It happens with all cases where marginal cost is reduced - this is expected and rational behavior. For example people with annual pass tend to use public transport more, as extra journeys are free. In fact I'm sure that people who are provided with car and fuel by their employees also change routines to take advantage of free travel. Not sure why that is stretching? If you had free fuel on one car would it not affect your choices in household?


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    grogi wrote: »
    That's ok. What I understood and find hilarious is that by having EV people not only do different split, they decided to completely change their commuting patterns (we used to drive both cars, now I give the wife a lift). And attribute the savings gained to driving EV only...

    That is really stretching it...

    You have been given supporting data by two further posters that agree with me. As others have said the marginal cost of extra mileage in an EV is close to zero. Hence it makes sense to dramatically change the split between two cars , while still retaining the flexibility of a two car household

    In my case it made little sense in giving my wife a lift in a gas guzzler , hers and mine both consumed too much fuel. The EV changed all that.

    I mean it's obvious , the more miles you crank up on an EV the ore you save over gas guzzling ice

    The savings are real


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    BoatMad wrote: »
    You have been given supporting data by two further posters that agree with me. As others have said the marginal cost of extra mileage in an EV is close to zero. Hence it makes sense to dramatically change the split between two cars , while still retaining the flexibility of a two car household

    In my case it made little sense in giving my wife a lift in a gas guzzler , hers and mine both consumed too much fuel. The EV changed all that.

    I mean it's obvious , the more miles you crank up on an EV the ore you save over gas guzzling ice

    The savings are real

    I do understand that, that is absolutely rational behaviour. I would do the same.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but I understood that not only you changed how the mileage is distributed between the cars, but you also changed how you commute in general.

    If at the same time you decided to do the groceries at Aldi on your way back instead of M&S in the evenings, will those savings be because of EV? Don't think so... You could do the same savings driving ICE...

    Those are completely separate things and ye guys could have carpooled with ICE car saving some money in the process. You decided to carpool when you switched to EV - that happened at the same time, but you cannot attribute savings from both to only changing to the EV.


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  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ Ivory Crashing Armada


    These days after 52,000 kms, 1 year 10 months, I have to say that I would now buy an EV alone based on my opinion that they're far superior to drive.


  • Posts: 17,728 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    These days after 52,000 kms, 1 year 10 months, I have to say that I would now buy an EV alone based on my opinion that they're far superior to drive.

    Doubt anyone believes you, your pocket rules :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭isnottheword


    Augeo wrote: »
    Doubt anyone believes you, your pocket rules :D

    For the vast majority of people, it's the pocket that rules. There was a post over on the facebook page of EV Owners where a researcher asked what peoples motivations were in buying an EV. 99% said that it was due to the opportunity to save $


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    For the vast majority of people, it's the pocket that rules. There was a post over on the facebook page of EV Owners where a researcher asked what peoples motivations were in buying an EV. 99% said that it was due to the opportunity to save $

    99% of people don't really care how their car drives, how it is maintained etc. They just want as cheap as possible A to B transportation...


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ Ivory Crashing Armada


    Once 300+ range electrics appear with a better range of models to choose from I think we'll definitely see a lot more people changing.

    Money is one thing yes but I really like the EV drive and everyone almost everyone who has driven the leaf was completely amazed by it but range was their No.1 problem with electrics but in fact most people were a bit surprised about it even having around 120 kms range in the first place imagine that but anyway, you'd be amazed by some of the complete nonsense people come out with about electrics, seriously it's disturbing how some people can be so dumb.

    Crap like this doesn't make me laugh any more "can you charge it as your driving from the wheels or some BS like that"

    or this one, this does make me laugh, "I bet they'll get perpetual motion sorted in a few years and you won't need to charge it at all" has anyone heard this one before ?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    Crap like this doesn't make me laugh any more "can you charge it as your driving from the wheels or some BS like that"

    or this one, this does make me laugh, "I bet they'll get perpetual motion sorted in a few years and you won't need to charge it at all" has anyone heard this one before ?

    It is simple physics - but only nerds understand physics. Daaaah?!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,278 ✭✭✭mordeith



    or this one, this does make me laugh, "I bet they'll get perpetual motion sorted in a few years and you won't need to charge it at all" has anyone heard this one before ?

    My seven year has drawn up plans for one


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ Ivory Crashing Armada


    mordeith wrote: »
    My seven year has drawn up plans for one

    The money spend on that school will be worth it yet !:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    grogi wrote: »
    I do understand that, that is absolutely rational behaviour. I would do the same.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but I understood that not only you changed how the mileage is distributed between the cars, but you also changed how you commute in general.

    If at the same time you decided to do the groceries at Aldi on your way back instead of M&S in the evenings, will those savings be because of EV? Don't think so... You could do the same savings driving ICE...

    Those are completely separate things and ye guys could have carpooled with ICE car saving some money in the process. You decided to carpool when you switched to EV - that happened at the same time, but you cannot attribute savings from both to only changing to the EV.

    The car pool is difficult for us as it is not that convienent and places severe restrictions on the person with the car.

    But look at it mathematically

    Let's for argument sake assuneb( cause they were close in costs ) that the fuel of the two " gas guzzlers was the same)

    Partner B does 130 km a day

    Partner A separately does similar mileage but in typically less frequent pattern but longer journeys , partners A distance does not convienentlu overlap partner Bs

    Hence fuel bill = 2x 130km x 5 per week ( ignoring weekend runaround )

    Partner B transfers mileage to partners A gas guzzler, there is little common over lap , so in effect most of the transferred miles simply add to partners B costs.

    Eg 80 km of partner A net transfers to partner B

    Costs remain the same , no savings across both vehicles are achieved.

    ( your flaw is assuming that by sharing the one car both partners are covering the same route , this is not the case )

    In fact with changing the split , in the gas guzzlers , costs actually went up as detours were necessary to achieve the car sharing

    Now partner B buys an EV

    Partners B commute costs now fall from €70 per week to around €8

    Every mile now transferred from gas guzzler A , to use of partner Bs EVs results in a 92% saving , this makes the inconvienence of both detour milage and General inconvienence of a single car shared worth it.

    In fact with free public charging , which partner A relies on because the car hasn't enough range , the savings are currently even greater as all additional mileage so transferred is actually free.

    As I said the savings are real , you're arguments would only make sense if both parties were essentially covering the same ground more or less , in that case two car use in the first place is highly questionable and as you say savings could be achieved by car pooling , in our case this is not the case.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    BoatMad wrote: »
    The car pool is difficult for us as it is not that convienent and places severe restrictions on the person with the car.

    But look at it mathematically

    Let's for argument sake assuneb( cause they were close in costs ) that the fuel of the two " gas guzzlers was the same)

    Partner B does 130 km a day

    Partner A separately does similar mileage but in typically less frequent pattern but longer journeys , partners A distance does not convienentlu overlap partner Bs

    Hence fuel bill = 2x 130km x 5 per week ( ignoring weekend runaround )

    Partner B transfers mileage to partners A gas guzzler, there is little common over lap , so in effect most of the transferred miles simply add to partners B costs.

    Eg 80 km of partner A net transfers to partner B

    Costs remain the same , no savings across both vehicles are achieved.

    ( your flaw is assuming that by sharing the one car both partners are covering the same route , this is not the case )

    In fact with changing the split , in the gas guzzlers , costs actually went up as detours were necessary to achieve the car sharing

    Now partner B buys an EV

    Partners B commute costs now fall from €70 per week to around €8

    Every mile now transferred from gas guzzler A , to use of partner Bs EVs results in a 92% saving , this makes the inconvienence of both detour milage and General inconvienence of a single car shared worth it.

    In fact with free public charging , which partner A relies on because the car hasn't enough range , the savings are currently even greater as all additional mileage so transferred is actually free.

    As I said the savings are real , you're arguments would only make sense if both parties were essentially covering the same ground more or less , in that case two car use anyway is highly questionable

    I never doubted your figures and I am super happy for you to achieve those saving. Once my boy-racer obsession wears off and I am ready to move on, my next car will be an EV too.

    But even you admit - some of those savings are not free and come with a cost - an inconvenience cost... So it is not only to EV alone, but also some inconvenience that gives those figures.


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ Ivory Crashing Armada


    grogi wrote: »

    But even you admit - some of those savings are not free and come with a cost - an inconvenience cost... So it is not only to EV alone, but also some inconvenience that gives those figures.

    Buying an EV V Diesel that costs a similar amount........ at some point you want to change the car or need to.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,066 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    I suppose I'm the one per cent who really values the envir consequence of going EV. It should form part of a wider carbon neutral economy strategy. Thus we will end up moving electricity gen to non polluting sources.
    Govn't will look at that way, or should.
    If the move to EV is logically promoted via cost savings, it's fine by me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,030 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Water John wrote: »
    I suppose I'm the one per cent who really values the envir consequence of going EV. It should form part of a wider carbon neutral economy strategy. Thus we will end up moving electricity gen to non polluting sources.
    Govn't will look at that way, or should.
    If the move to EV is logically promoted via cost savings, it's fine by me.

    Money talks. Its all the general public will react to.

    The percentage who care about the environment is tiny. Otherwise the Greens would be in government alot more than they are!


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    Water John wrote: »
    I suppose I'm the one per cent who really values the envir consequence of going EV. It should form part of a wider carbon neutral economy strategy. Thus we will end up moving electricity gen to non polluting sources.
    Govn't will look at that way, or should.
    If the move to EV is logically promoted via cost savings, it's fine by me.

    Carbon neutral?! Are you serious?! You actually have to have a lot of renewable electricity sources for an EV to be more CO2 efficient than a modern diesel.


    The EV have massive environmental impact, but reduction of CO2 is not the most important component of it.

    It is the moving energy generation from a small uncontrolled car to a central power plant that matters. Modern power plants, even the coal based once, don't emit much more that H20 and CO2. A new car does emit much more pollutants, not to mention what happens when the car is 10 years old...


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    grogi wrote: »
    I never doubted your figures and I am super happy for you to achieve those saving. Once my boy-racer obsession wears off and I am ready to move on, my next car will be an EV too.

    But even you admit - some of those savings are not free and come with a cost - an inconvenience cost... So it is not only to EV alone, but also some inconvenience that gives those figures.

    Yes it's a balance of inconvienence over costs. However if the inconvienence becomes too great , the answer is a second EV ( which we are actually considering ) rather them any ice based solution. Right now the cost savings are greater then the inconvienence ( and we get to spend the savings on dinners out !! )


    By the way , if you want boy racer , buy a i3 , electric just blows the doors off the 19tn century bag of boots that is petrol

    The future of the sports car is well assured and it's electric


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    grogi wrote: »
    Carbon neutral?! Are you serious?! You actually have to have a lot of renewable electricity sources for an EV to be more CO2 efficient than a modern diesel.


    The EV have massive environmental impact, but reduction of CO2 is not the most important component of it.

    It is the moving energy generation from a small uncontrolled car to a central power plant that matters. Modern power plants, even the coal based once, don't emit much more that H20 and CO2. A new car does emit much more pollutants, not to mention what happens when the car is 10 years old...

    Of course you conveniently ignore the environmental cost ( and electricity consumption) of manufacturing petrol ( or diesel ) never mind the environmental cost of them burning that fuel on the road.

    End to end , taking all aspects of the car including the environmental costs of petrol production , EVs are clear winners. This will only improve as electricity generation becomes increasingly decarbonised

    That's leaving aside the clear health impacts of hydrocarbon point of Delivery pollution ( nox) as co2 isn't a pollutant


  • Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ Ivory Crashing Armada


    I think when we get a hell of a lot more electrics on the Roads we're going to have to consider Nuclear, renewable energy is fine but I don't think it has a hope of powering the grid when we dump transport on the grid.

    It's the only true way to reduce emissions. Sure I'd love to see solar PV on every house in Ireland but the TWH worth of electricity needed for the grid, this can only come from one source for the majority.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,066 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    I think the particle emissions from diesel and the health implications will come home to roost. Diesel could get abandoned very quickly.

    It is only by going electric in all sorts of ways that we will be able to go towards carbon neutral. Yes it may mean some Thorium salt reactors combined with RE.

    Electric cars will roll out quickly, once they get range. Anew lighter battery with higher capacity and quicker charging, which will come, will be a total game changer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,615 ✭✭✭grogi


    BoatMad wrote: »
    Of course you conveniently ignore the environmental cost ( and electricity consumption) of manufacturing petrol ( or diesel ) never mind the environmental cost of them burning that fuel on the road.

    End to end , taking all aspects of the car including the environmental costs of petrol production, EVs are clear winners.

    No, I don't forget about any of that. I don't also forget the environmental and human cost of mining the lithium as well as rare earth (such as neodymium) elements needed for batteries and electric motors.

    Environmental impact and energy cost study should not forget that as a byproduct of oil refining we also get LPG - which is used for heating...
    BoatMad wrote: »
    This will only improve as electricity generation becomes increasingly decarbonised

    I don't know the exact figures, but I feel that unfortunately it does not. For instance wood/timber was reclassify as sustainable energy source...
    That's leaving aside the clear health impacts of hydrocarbon point of Delivery pollution ( nox) as co2 isn't a pollutant

    No question about that. That alone is enough to ditch ICE all together.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭cros13


    grogi wrote: »
    Carbon neutral?! Are you serious?! You actually have to have a lot of renewable electricity sources for an EV to be more CO2 efficient than a modern diesel.

    That's not true. EVs are so efficient that it's impossible for a combustion vehicle to match them on CO2 emissions especially if you are being honest and including refining and transport emissions and losses (which can be 3000-4000g/L, yeah more than the carbon content of the fuel itself!).
    grogi wrote: »
    The EV have massive environmental impact, but reduction of CO2 is not the most important component of it.

    Agreed.
    grogi wrote: »
    It is the moving energy generation from a small uncontrolled car to a central power plant that matters.

    That matters to a certain extent. Your run-of-the-mill combined cycle power plant is around 50-60% efficient with the average vehicle ICE being between 25-30% efficient. However you need to take into account the fuel mix on the grid. http://smartgriddashboard.eirgrid.com/ should give you a primer. The renewable portion is substantially higher at night when the vast majority of us charge (it's also to our financial benefit because of the nightsaver). In December 2015 for a three week period more than 80% of grid power during the nightsaver hours was from renewable. You'll notice the majority of the remainder is gas and then we have the Moneypoint coal station. Moneypoint can't just be turned on and off like a light... it takes to reach peak efficiency after a shutdown.... so even if we were not using the power they still need to run.
    grogi wrote: »
    Modern power plants, even the coal based once, don't emit much more that H20 and CO2. A new car does emit much more pollutants, not to mention what happens when the car is 10 years old...

    While that's true for gas... it's not true for coal. Coal plants still emit sulfur dioxides and particulates (although less particulates now that particulate traps are installed).


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭cros13


    grogi wrote: »
    No, I don't forget about any of that. I don't also forget the environmental and human cost of mining the lithium as well as rare earth (such as neodymium) elements needed for batteries and electric motors.

    Lithium mining is relatively clean, provided waste water is managed correctly it's one of the cleanest mining operations. Li also only makes up 1% by weight of the battery at most. Many other materials used such as Cobalt are by-products of other mining or manufacturing (which is actually a big problem for ramping up battery production, because it makes supply price insensitive). Most EV electric motors are AC induction motors that don't use rare earth elements, they are mostly made of coiled copper wire.
    grogi wrote: »
    I don't know the exact figures, but I feel that unfortunately it does not. For instance wood/timber was reclassify as sustainable energy source...

    Provided the wood is replanted it is... The carbon in the wood was in the atmosphere fairly recently after all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,108 ✭✭✭highdef


    Just spotted 4 white electric Hyundai Ioniqs with dealer plates in what looks like a press/dealer demo or something (everyone in the cars was suited) heading city bound on the Chapelizod bypass.

    Is the launch coming up soon?


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,066 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Put in a phone call to Dannny Healy Rae. He'll do the launch for them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 417 ✭✭Mancomb Seepgood


    Water John wrote: »
    Put in a phone call to Dannny Healy Rae. He'll do the launch for them.

    Yeah, but can you drive from Sneem to Caherdaniel and back in one?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭cros13


    Yeah, but can you drive from Sneem to Caherdaniel and back in one?

    I've blown past danny on the M7 doing 50km/h more than him. Since his comments...and given I know the car...I've contemplated putting his car on dollys and towing it from Sneem to Caherdaniel and back with my EV.


This discussion has been closed.
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