Ulster Team Talk Thread III: Les Miserables SEE MOD WARNING POST #1924 + #2755

Ulster says FOLK

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Certainly some things are out of kiss's control but he's coming up on 3 years in charge and things have been getting progressively worse. Particularly around the area where he is a specialist.

To be honest I think this has been Ulster's best season for a while. Sitting 3rd in their conference and looking like European qualification is on. Sure it could fall to pieces later on but given everything it's not a bad season so far. Yes there have been bad games but the overall picture is somewhat positive.

Call me old fashion but our best season so far would be winning both and playing well with a good crop of players coming through to push the 1st 15. Far too long with have accepted being number 3/4 in Ireland. it's Rickie Bobby for me "if you ain't first......"

$ausage$ wrote: »

Call me old fashion but our best season so far would be winning both and playing well with a good crop of players coming through to push the 1st 15. Far too long with have accepted being number 3/4 in Ireland. it's Rickie Bobby for me "if you ain't first......"

And changing the management yet again will change that how? It will still be the same players, with the same attitude problems. The same lack of squad depth and weakness in key positions. Literally just kicking the can down the road again, bringing in someone else to blame and starting the cycle yet again.

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

To be honest I think this has been Ulster's best season for a while. Sitting 3rd in their conference and looking like European qualification is on. Sure it could fall to pieces later on but given everything it's not a bad season so far. Yes there have been bad games but the overall picture is somewhat positive.

Sorry Ciaran, this is simply wrong. Have a brief look at the league history, tries conceded, scored etc and you'll see what is wrong. Ulster had very good defence records and a very effective rush defence until Kiss took over and seemed to change to an outdated narrow, drifting, crablike defence that simply doesn't work. This is not rugby league. Same players by and large but totally different outcomes. Defence wins games. Then we have Loonytoon selections with no rational reason for most of them. Unneeded changes week after week. No obvious game strategy.

WE watched guys who previously had been very capable without being world beaters getting bull rooted by Munster's second string forwards. The unlamented Clarke may have had poor personal relations with his colleagues but by feck the forwards didn't impersonate the fairy at the bottom of the garden.

There are many structural fault-lines that have been allowed to develop over the years at Ulster. These are mainly I believe, due to bad management and stupid signings, many of whom never even played for Ulster, simply getting well paid for feck all. Then there are the signings that appear to be made simply because a player was on a team squad in England or somewhere else. Most of these guys were never actually investigated properly before getting anointed and being given a BMW. How many arrived with serious injuries that made them unfit even before they were signed.

The guys in the Academy may as well be situated in Siberia for all the opportunities they are given. How dispiriting must that be.

jacothelad wrote: »

WE watched guys who previously had been very capable without being world beaters getting bull rooted by Munster's second string forwards. The unlamented Clarke may have had poor personal relations with his colleagues but by feck the forwards didn't impersonate the fairy at the bottom of the garden.

Your two starting props on Monday were Ah You who was on his first start after a long injury lay off. The other was McCall who was on his first start after an even longer injury lay off. Your locks were on their 11th and 12th starts respectively and your flankers were an academy player and a guy who was... yes... on his first start after a long injury lay off whilst your number eight was yet another academy player.

That was Ulster's pack.

It has to be Les Miserables. It works for both the coaching team and the support so perfectly.

prawnsambo wrote: »

Your two starting props on Monday were Ah You who was on his first start after a long injury lay off. The other was McCall who was on his first start after an even longer injury lay off. Your locks were on their 11th and 12th starts respectively and your flankers were an academy player and a guy who was... yes... on his first start after a long injury lay off whilst your number eight was yet another academy player.

That was Ulster's pack.

Yes it was but you are misleading the situation to some extent. Our starting props are experienced players. Both have performed to a high level, especially McCall. He would be seen as our N0.1 L/H. Ah Feck has even been capped. O'Connor has 12 / 15 starts this season and 55 in total. Treadwell is a capped international with 34 appearances for Ulster including 11 / 13 starts this season, 4 of those being in the ERC. The stats you have used are for this season only.

I suspect that any other coach would have started the game with Black and Herbst and brought on the returning guys late in the game, or he could have played Warwick on either side. That is generally the way these things are managed. The back row was as you say an inexperienced unit with only Deysel being a 'veteran' but again Kiss could have started Diack with over 200 caps in the back row with Deysel and Timoney. He could then have brought on the young guys later.

As it worked out, the young fellows got into the speed of the game after a while and perhaps is an indication that giving them a chance is the feckin' reason for their existence inn the first place. Ulster have rarely given Academy guys any chance unlike the other three provinces who regularly do it and discover fine players as a result. I reckon if JVDF, Conan etc had been at Ulster they would never have seen the light of day. Yet another major problem at Ravenspan. Many fans lament the lack of 'home grown' guys in the forwards. Well if the young ones are never exposed to the high intensity games then they are never going to make it....and they then get binned having had 3 years of their lives wasted. We see them appear on rare occasions, they do o.k. or better and they are never seen again for months or even years.

jacothelad wrote: »

Yes it was but you are misleading the situation to some extent. Our starting props are experienced players. Both have performed to a high level, especially McCall. He would be seen as our N0.1 L/H. Ah Feck has even been capped. O'Connor has 12 / 15 starts this season and 55 in total. Treadwell is a capped international with 34 appearances for Ulster including 11 / 13 starts this season, 4 of those being in the ERC. The stats you have used are for this season only.

My point about the starts is that these guys are heading very close to overuse. I think O'Connor had a total of 12 starts last season and has hit that number already this season. I'm not talking about experience here, I'm talking about how a thin squad is having to be managed and why cracks can appear.

jacothelad wrote: »

I suspect that any other coach would have started the game with Black and Herbst and brought on the returning guys late in the game, or he could have played Warwick on either side. That is generally the way these things are managed. The back row was as you say an inexperienced unit with only Deysel being a 'veteran' but again Kiss could have started Diack with over 200 caps in the back row with Deysel and Timoney. He could then have brought on the young guys later.

Black might have started having had a week off against Connacht, but that followed a run of eight games including both Harlequins matches. Herbst was just off a run of three starts including both ERCC games. Warwick was an option alright but he seems to be a bench option for some reason. AFAIR he was minced by Connacht, so perhaps would have been a risk?

jacothelad wrote: »

As it worked out, the young fellows got into the speed of the game after a while and perhaps is an indication that giving them a chance is the feckin' reason for their existence inn the first place. Ulster have rarely given Academy guys any chance unlike the other three provinces who regularly do it and discover fine players as a result. I reckon if JVDF, Conan etc had been at Ulster they would never have seen the light of day. Yet another major problem at Ravenspan. Many fans lament the lack of 'home grown' guys in the forwards. Well if the young ones are never exposed to the high intensity games then they are never going to make it....and they then get binned having had 3 years of their lives wasted. We see them appear on rare occasions, they do o.k. or better and they are never seen again for months or even years.

I have no idea what sort of quality languishes in the academy, but if some academy players are being selected and working well and others are not, does that not indicate that they aren't ready? The exact same situation pertains in the Leinster academy. There are many players there who haven't been capped yet. I think it's as much as two thirds of them. And of the rest, it's maybe one or two caps apart from exceptional players like Larmour. And Leinster have a far better chance of coming up with exceptional players given the strength of rugby in the province.

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I don't know but good job to whoever it is.

I believe they call him Nucifer up in Ulster.

I would also like to see a radical overhaul of the academy. It needs to stop being the jobs for the boys and get some great young coaches with a track record of working with younger players.

The academy should also be producing coaches for the senior side as well not just players!

Edit: what I mean by young is not guys on the way down ones on the way up no matter of age

prawnsambo wrote: »

$ausage$ wrote: »

We have changed everything but one person at this stage. Surely that shows where the issue is?
Repeating the same idea and looking for different results is the definition of insane.

Ulster have changed nothing but coaches surely? Isn't changing another one exactly the kind of insanity you're describing?

They have taken in players too. They changed the whole setup last year of coaches. I am not saying take one in, I am saying get rid of a DiR and let the coaches coach. 
JB is Head coach as a title so he can get x amount of money in the wage structure. So why is he not doing more? The money saved without the DiR could be put into other things like accadment setup.

taken from wikipedia but interesting to see.

For me its shocking Cowboys stats are so good. I really don't remember him being that good.

$ausage$ wrote: »

They have taken in players too. They changed the whole setup last year of coaches. I am not saying take one in, I am saying get rid of a DiR and let the coaches coach.
JB is Head coach as a title so he can get x amount of money in the wage structure. So why is he not doing more? The money saved without the DiR could be put into other things like accadment setup.

There are always going to be changes in playing personnel. That's part of the normal picture in any club.

One of the major changes that I can see from the outside is an improvement in the kinds of players that are being recruited. John Cooney, Jordi Murphy, Marty Moore are all very good quality signings and a lot better than the scrapings of the Championship/lower English leagues that seemed to be a feature in the past. There also seems to be a willingness to recruit into the academy from outside the province where there's a lack of an alternative from within.

$ausage$ wrote: »

For me its shocking Cowboys stats are so good. I really don't remember him being that good.

When you think back to their European campaigns, it's not that surprising. They were absolutely dominant in their pools winning 11/12 games under him. It should have been a clean sweep too if it wasn't for a poor loss at home to Northampton.