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Irexit party yay or nay?

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Comments

  • #32
    Gravelly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    That's not what I said at all.

    I think we shouldn't give platforms or validity to people who talk absolute nonsense and admit with pride that they don't really have a clue what the consequences of their proposed actions would be, but that they want to just shake things up. That's anarchy.

    Eh, no. Anarchy is (according to the dictionary):

    a state of disorder due to absence or non-recognition of authority or other controlling systems.

    absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal.

    People expressing an opinion, regardless of the validity or otherwise of that opinion, is not anarchy by any definition.


  • #33
    Gravelly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    So dissent for the sake of dissenting?

    There's no comparison for the growth in Ireland since the seventies and eighties that can be attributed to EU membership when it comes to the benefits for the UK.

    If you want to put it like that, dissent for the sake of dissenting. I would be opposed to Irexit (unless the EU disintegrates further) but I am happy that there are people considering the alternatives, even if I don't agree with that alternative. It is a good thing to see what could or might be, even if it never happens.


  • #34
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Gravelly wrote: »
    Eh, no. Anarchy is (according to the dictionary):

    a state of disorder due to absence or non-recognition of authority or other controlling systems.

    absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal.

    People expressing an opinion, regardless of the validity or otherwise of that opinion, is not anarchy by any definition.
    ...more deflection I see.

    People expressing an opinion, which is simplistic, unrealistic, unsupported by facts or any kind of evidence should not be listened to by any sane or rational person.


  • #35
    Gravelly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    ...more deflection I see.

    People expressing an opinion, which is simplistic, unrealistic, unsupported by facts or any kind of evidence should not be listened to by any sane or rational person.

    Again, you haven't said what I'm deflecting from - do you just use deflection as a kind of catch-all dismissal of any opinion you don't like?

    You believe that anyone who isn't pro-EU is simplistic and unrealistic? Why? In other EU countries there are mainstream politicians and parties that are not pro-EU - are they all "lunatics"? Is the entire population of Norway mad?

    Again, I find this violent opposition to alternative views to be strange, and bordering on fascistic.


  • #36
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Gravelly wrote: »
    So you think there should only be consent with the status quo? I find that fascinating. I'd find it horrifying if I thought there was a large majority who thought like you though. History has many lessons to teach us, and an important one is that when everyone thinks the same, nobody is thinking.

    So one guy is dancing on the edge of the cliffs of Moher singing "I'm a freeee biird!" and you think it is horrifying that there is a consensus among the crowd watching that he is a reckless idiot?

    You think it is healthy that some people in the crowd are saying "that looks like fun!"?

    No. Brexit is mad. Irexit is mad squared.


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  • #37
    Gravelly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    So one guy is dancing on the edge of the cliffs of Moher singing "I'm a freeee biird!" and you think it is horrifying that there is a consensus among the crowd watching that he is a reckless idiot?

    You think it is healthy that some people in the crowd are saying "that looks like fun!"?

    No. Brexit is mad. Irexit is mad squared.

    In your hypothetical case, yes. But that's not a fair comparison - a better one would be "if someone expresses the opinion that it would be cool to basejump off the cliffs of moher, he is mad and dangerous and must be stopped"

    And your last line misses the point. Brexit may or may not prove to be "mad" (there's the mental illness comparison again), and Irexit, in my opinion, is certainly not desirable at this time, but why get ones knickers all bunched up if other people think it might be a good idea? Democracy is based on the will of the majority, as long as the majority agree with you, who cares what a few dissenters say? If the majority agree with the dissenters, then, by your logic, you are the mad one!


  • #38
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Gravelly wrote: »
    Again, you haven't said what I'm deflecting from - do you just use deflection as a kind of catch-all dismissal of any opinion you don't like?
    No, but you're using deflection to focus in on one point whilst ignoring the bulk of the point.
    You believe that anyone who isn't pro-EU is simplistic and unrealistic? Why? In other EU countries there are mainstream politicians and parties that are not pro-EU - are they all "lunatics"? Is the entire population of Norway mad?
    You're putting words in my mouth again. I think this conversation is done, why not go look at what I actually said.

    Many of the "mainstream" politicians in other EU countries that are anti-EU are lunatics, yes. Some aren't, but they tend to have legitimate points backed by evidence and facts - are they correct in their opinions? Probably not, but at least it's more than let's "shake it up".
    Again, I find this violent opposition to alternative views to be strange, and bordering on fascistic.
    ...and I think wanting to "shake up" the system on the basis of an unsupported opinion, basically just for the craic, is strange and bordering on anarchistic.


  • #39
    Gravelly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    No, but you're using deflection to focus in on one point whilst ignoring the bulk of the point.


    You're putting words in my mouth again. I think this conversation is done, why not go look at what I actually said.

    Many of the "mainstream" politicians in other EU countries that are anti-EU are lunatics, yes. Some aren't, but they tend to have legitimate points backed by evidence and facts - are they correct in their opinions? Probably not, but at least it's more than let's "shake it up".


    ...and I think wanting to "shake up" the system on the basis of an unsupported opinion, basically just for the craic, is strange and bordering on anarchistic.

    :rolleyes: And I'm the one deflecting!


  • #40
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,823 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    There's a big difference between expressing an alternative view and living in an alternative reality

    Life ain't always empty.



  • #41
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Gravelly wrote: »
    but why get ones knickers all bunched up if other people think it might be a good idea?

    Because it's ridiculous. It's a ridiculous opinion based nowhere close to reality with seemingly no basis for doing it other than... just because!?

    I'm trying to think of an analogy, but they're all just as absurd as the initial suggestion of Irexit for the sake of it.

    Like if you could provide even one coherent and evidence-based point as to why/how Irexit would be a good idea and how it would actually work, you might have an opinion worth debating. But until then, there's nothing to discuss.

    Democracy is based on the will of the majority, as long as the majority agree with you, who cares what a few dissenters say? If the majority agree with the dissenters, then, by your logic, you are the mad one!
    Just because the majority want to do something doesn't mean it's not an insane idea. That's why we have a government and we don't just do a text-in X Factor vote for everything. Also, a lot of people are just totally ignorant and/or uneducated on certain things - economics being a big one that people don't seem to understand.


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  • #42
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Gravelly wrote: »
    :rolleyes: And I'm the one deflecting!
    Yes, and in fact you're doing it now by continuing to fail to address any point in my posts.


  • #43
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,060 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Gravelly wrote: »
    If it's such obvious "lunacy" then why get so worked up about it? Let people have their "lunatic" alternative view, it might keep the smart, sane ones honest.

    People have a right to protest and, arguably a duty to call snake oil salesmen like Farage out on what they're peddling.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • #44
    Gravelly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    Yes, and in fact you're doing it now by continuing to fail to address any point in my posts.

    You aren't making any point other than any opinion I disagree with is insane and you are insane if you think anyone should be allowed to disagree with me
    I've addressed that "point" multiple times.

    Obviously there's a new "point" in your above post, where you seem to be dismissing democracy as "a text-in X Factor vote" (whatever that means), but I think I'll take your advice on that one and dismiss it as insanity.


  • #45
    Gravelly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    People have a right to protest and, arguably a duty to call snake oil salesmen like Farage out on what they're peddling.

    I've absolutely no problem with that whatsoever. In fact, I agree wholeheartedly.
    People have a right to protest, and a right to a dissenting opinion.


  • #46
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Gravelly wrote: »
    You aren't making any point other than any opinion I disagree with is insane and you are insane if you think anyone should be allowed to disagree with me
    That's not even slightly what I said
    I've addressed that "point" multiple times.
    You've seemingly failed to address the actual point raised though.
    Obviously there's a new "point" in your above post, where you seem to be dismissing democracy as "a text-in X Factor vote" (whatever that means), but I think I'll take your advice on that one and dismiss it as insanity.
    Again, I think the crux of the discussion is going right over your head and you're picking small points to focus on rather than the actual substance of the discussion. Irexit is a dumb idea with no rationale, no evidence to support its merits, not even an iota of thought gone into how it would work or what its consequences would be. I think listening to such an opinion would be a massive waste of everyone's time.


  • #47
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Gravelly wrote: »
    I've absolutely no problem with that whatsoever. In fact, I agree wholeheartedly.
    People have a right to protest, and a right to a dissenting opinion.
    They don't have a right to have anyone listen to that opinion. A major problem we have in discourse at the moment is the unfounded belief that one's opinion is as valid as that of an expert or a person who has an evidence-based opinion.


  • #48
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Gravelly wrote: »
    People have a right to protest, and a right to a dissenting opinion.

    Yet when people object to Farage & jahn Waters nonsense, you claim this is bordering on fascistic?


  • #49
    Gravelly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    That's not even slightly what I said

    Isn't it?
    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    economic suicide.
    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    People expressing an opinion, which is simplistic, unrealistic, unsupported by facts or any kind of evidence should not be listened to by any sane or rational person.
    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    Many of the "mainstream" politicians in other EU countries that are anti-EU are lunatics, yes. .
    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    Because it's ridiculous. It's a ridiculous opinion based nowhere close to reality with seemingly no basis for doing it
    Just because the majority want to do something doesn't mean it's not an insane idea. Also, a lot of people are just totally ignorant and/or uneducated
    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    You've seemingly failed to address the actual point raised though.

    I haven't. I addressed it numerous times. You just don't like counter opinion - mine or anyone else's, and your reaction is to dismiss any opinion you don't like.
    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    Again, I think the crux of the discussion is going right over your head

    How wonderfully condescending of you.
    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    and you're picking small points to focus on rather than the actual substance of the discussion. Irexit is a dumb idea with no rationale, no evidence to support its merits, not even an iota of thought gone into how it would work or what its consequences would be. I think listening to such an opinion would be a massive waste of everyone's time.

    So what if it is a waste of everyone's time? Don't listen to counter opinions if they are a waste of your valuable time. That still doesn't give you the right to deny others the opportunity to listen to counter opinions and dismiss or accept them as they wish.


  • #50
    Gravelly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Yet when people object to Farage & jahn Waters nonsense, you claim this is bordering on fascistic?

    I didn't claim that at all though.


  • #51
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,060 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Gravelly wrote: »
    I've absolutely no problem with that whatsoever. In fact, I agree wholeheartedly.
    People have a right to protest, and a right to a dissenting opinion.

    Nobody here has said otherwise.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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  • #52
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Gravelly wrote: »
    I didn't claim that at all though.

    Ok, bye!


  • #53
    Nelson Van Alden
    Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭Nelson Van Alden


    It makes no sense for Ireland to leave Europe, our economy is completely reliant on free trade with Europe. We would lose out on any funding from Europe which has helped modernise this country and put an end to Ireland being 'the sick man of Europe'. The idea that we can be a more prosperous country on our own is ridiculous.


  • #54
    Tabnabs
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Nobody here has said otherwise.
    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    I think we shouldn't give platforms or validity to people who talk absolute nonsense and admit with pride that they don't really have a clue what the consequences of their proposed actions would be, but that they want to just shake things up. That's anarchy.

    It doesn't get much clearer than that.


  • #55
    Wheety
    Registered Users Posts: 5,510 ✭✭✭Wheety


    How do you pronounce Irexit? Brexit just works as a portmanteau but Irexit?

    Is it Ire (as in the start of Ireland) and then zit?
    Ire Exit? (Doesn't sound right)
    I rexit?


  • #56
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,060 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Tabnabs wrote: »
    It doesn't get much clearer than that.

    Not the same thing. People have a right to free speech but individuals and organisations are under no obligation whatsoever to provide a platform for said free speech.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • #57
    Tabnabs
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    Laughable, you are attempting to move the posts and trying to introduce subtle changes to support your view. The viewpoint has clearly been made that this dissenting opinion should not be given "platforms or validity".


  • #58
    Arthur Daley
    Registered Users Posts: 4,354 ✭✭✭Arthur Daley


    The 'Stockholm syndrome' is strong when it comes to our relationship with the ECB and EU. The EC is seriously anti democratic. 35% of the British electorate recognised the flaws during the 1975 referendum on the EEC. So this has been out there a long time now. You don't have to follow Farage to espouse that. Tony Benn said it all his life, Corbyn has been anti EC all his career.

    A Eurosceptic party in Ireland can be a broad church. That it is attacked and vilified by FG/FF and their media agents is utterly predictable. They don't like losing their sense of control.


  • #59
    pleas advice
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭pleas advice


    Wheety wrote: »
    How do you pronounce Irexit? Brexit just works as a portmanteau but Irexit?

    Is it Ire (as in the start of Ireland) and then zit?
    Ire Exit? (Doesn't sound right)
    I rexit?

    I wrecks it


  • #60
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,060 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    pleas advice wrote: »
    I wrecks it

    Serious posts only please.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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  • #61
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,060 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Tabnabs wrote: »
    Laughable, you are attempting to move the posts and trying to introduce subtle changes to support your view. The viewpoint has clearly been made that this dissenting opinion should not be given "platforms or validity".

    Nope. If you want to willingly and incorrectly conflate not being given a platform with censorship then that's your prerogative.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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