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Irexit party yay or nay?

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    #92
    Gravelly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    The only blind rage I see here is yours, and you continue to attempt to argue a tangential point as opposed to the actual question. So, it's an argument you're losing here by undermining your point that opinions are as valid as evidence.

    You're seeing things then! I'm not arguing any tangential point - I made the point that people have the right to dissenting opinions, you disagreed (or at least claimed that anyone with dissenting opinions is mentally unwell) and I have continued to outline why you are wrong. Just because you don't like that, doesn't make it wrong. Your, frankly ludicrous, deflection attempt over the past few posts, that evidence is required that people should be allowed to hold opinions, doesn't reflect any better on you than your constant mental illness references, and doesn't make for a viable argument.


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    #93
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Arthur Daley wrote: »
    But we could start with getting debt free, stop ramping housing out of the reach of working people, and genuinely printing your own currency. Not just a carbon copy of Sterling that goes from crisis to crisis. As STG did post war.
    Let's just extrapolate this a bit then.

    1) What currency do we peg Punt Nua to? We obviously can't just float it on the markets.

    2) Are we printing off our own currency to clear the debt? I'm a bit confused here.

    3) How does leaving the EU impact housing prices directly?


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    #94
    Gravelly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    ArmaniJeanss wrote: »
    What do you want the Irexit movement to have?
    Theres already a few Irexit TDs who don't get shouted down, they have full rights to campaign via posters and newspaper ads to get more TDs, get a majority in the Dail and then can call a referendum.
    They really aren't being treated like Emily Pankhurst.

    Are you sure - ok, they haven't been jailed or force fed (yet!) but the mockery, and accusations of insanity are remarkably similar.


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    #95
    Arthur Daley
    Registered Users Posts: 4,384 ✭✭✭Arthur Daley


    The commision decides anything of any importance. The commision is not elected. Do we really belive our MEPs hold the power there.


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    #96
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,162 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Yes. The Commission only proposes legislation. The Parliament votes on it.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #97
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,904 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Gravelly wrote: »
    Then either don't listen to them, or challenge them. Simples. No need to get all upset that the "mad" or "insane" are allowed to speak.

    Challenge them at their meeting where no discussion or dissent was permitted?

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #98
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Gravelly wrote: »
    I'm not arguing any tangential point - I made the point that people have the right to dissenting opinions,
    *checks thread title* Oh yeah, not tangential at all...
    you disagreed
    Some opinions are worthless.
    (or at least claimed that anyone with dissenting opinions is mentally unwell)
    That's a lie.
    and I have continued to outline why you are wrong. Just because you don't like that, doesn't make it wrong. Your, frankly ludicrous, deflection attempt over the past few posts, that evidence is required that people should be allowed to hold opinions,
    You haven't outlined anything. Like... at all.
    doesn't reflect any better on you than your constant mental illness references, and doesn't make for a viable argument.
    Again, that's a lie.


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    #99
    Arthur Daley
    Registered Users Posts: 4,384 ✭✭✭Arthur Daley


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    Let's just extrapolate this a bit then.

    1) What currency do we peg Punt Nua to? We obviously can't just float it on the markets.

    2) Are we printing off our own currency to clear the debt? I'm a bit confused here.

    3) How does leaving the EU impact housing prices directly?

    Why could it not float.

    We 'revisit' the debt the ECB forced us to take on for starters. As people thought they were voting for in the 2011 general election.

    As per above solving the housing issues will take more than a few lines on here. But by withdrawing from a debt fuelled economy to the degree we have taken on in the last 20 years will reduce our liabilities and asset prices. Or maybe David McWilliams is right and we are addicted to high house prices.


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    #100
    Gravelly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Challenge them at their meeting where no discussion or dissent was permitted?

    I believe there was one "dissenter" at the meeting - just saw a headline, didn't read the story - perhaps he was ejected. Does it matter what they say at their meetings? They are hardly going to somehow sneak us out of the EU from their redoubt in the mansion house. Challenge them if they run for office or try to lobby for changes to legislation.


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    #101
    Gravelly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    *checks thread title* Oh yeah, not tangential at all...


    Some opinions are worthless.


    That's a lie.


    You haven't outlined anything. Like... at all.


    Again, that's a lie.

    I see lots of lies there - you really don't like being forced to debate, do you? No wonder you don't want to allow others to hold opinions.


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    #102
    simonw
    Registered Users Posts: 644 ✭✭✭simonw


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    3) How does leaving the EU impact housing prices directly?

    Demand would go down as everyone would be unemployed


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    #103
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Arthur Daley wrote: »
    Why could it not float.

    We 'revisit' the debt the ECB forced us to take on for starters. As people thought they were voting for in the 2011 general election.

    As per above solving the housing issues will take more than a few lines on here. But by withdrawing from a debt fuelled economy to the degree we have taken on in the last 20 years will reduce our liabilities and asset prices. Or maybe David McWilliams is right and we are addicted to high house prices.
    We can't default on our debt repayments and then expect to be able to float a new currency on the market. Either way Floating Exchange Rates are extraordinarily volatile and subject to speculation.

    Trade would be rough, emigration would be massive and there would be a lot of inflation. But you're right, houses would probably be cheaper!


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    #104
    Arthur Daley
    Registered Users Posts: 4,384 ✭✭✭Arthur Daley


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    Trade would be rough, emigration would be massive and there would be a lot of inflation. But you're right, houses would probably be cheaper!

    Well so the conventional wisdom goes. If the British ever get the chance to leave as they have voted for, we shall see. We have the benefit of seeing this destruction in action, before deciding ourselves.

    But let's face it the British won't get that chance for meaningful exit. And I suggest everyone just thinks about that over the next 15 months.


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    #105
    knipex
    Registered Users Posts: 2,018 ✭✭✭knipex


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    It tells me that people in Ireland recognize utter lunacy when they see it.

    No supporter of any nationalist party but..

    I think its just more evidence that freedom of speech and even the right to disagree is under threat..

    There appears to be no right to disagree anymore you are part of the group think or its open season..


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    #106
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,904 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    But you're right, houses would probably be cheaper!

    Mortgages would be dearer though (if obtainable at all) due to sky high interest rates.

    Ideal scenario for foreign funds to come back and buy up loads of assets, and our devalued New Irish Peso would make the cost very affordable for them.

    Any suggestion of giving up a hard currency for a weak one is nuts. It's fine for the super wealthy who can hold gold and move their wealth overseas. Everyone else gets screwed.

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #107
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,162 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Arthur Daley wrote: »
    Well so the conventional wisdom goes. If the British ever get the chance to leave as they have voted for, we shall see. We have the benefit of seeing this destruction in action, before deciding ourselves.

    But let's face it the British won't get that chance for meaningful exit. And I suggest everyone just thinks about that over the next 15 months.

    The UK is one of the world's wealthiest nations and a global leader in science in technology. It also has a market of some 63 million people. When you look at how it's currently floundering in its dealings with Brussels, it's really hard to see any logic as to why Ireland should chart the same course.
    knipex wrote: »
    No supporter of any nationalist party but..

    I think its just more evidence that freedom of speech and even the right to disagree is under threat..

    There appears to be no right to disagree anymore you are part of the group think or its open season..

    Farage has plenty of platforms with the likes of Fox News, Breitbart, the BBC, etc... This is nothing to do with freedom of speech.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #108
    weisses
    Registered Users Posts: 9,430 ✭✭✭weisses


    Gravelly wrote: »
    I believe there was one "dissenter" at the meeting - just saw a headline, didn't read the story - perhaps he was ejected. Does it matter what they say at their meetings? They are hardly going to somehow sneak us out of the EU from their redoubt in the mansion house. Challenge them if they run for office or try to lobby for changes to legislation.
    People seeking tickets for the event online were required to confirm they agreed to terms and conditions that stated that the conference was "only open to supporters of an Irish Exit from the European Union".

    The terms also said: "Unwelcome interjections from the audience may result in removal from the event."

    from

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/farage-tells-irexit-conference-eu-humiliated-ireland-36564549.html

    How does that sit with your position in the post below ?
    Gravelly wrote: »
    the whole Irexit thing or not, Ireland needs a few dissenting political voices. It was telling how virulent the response to the meeting at the weekend was by media and the usual Twitter mob. This is the first generation ever that is more conservative than its predecessor (disguised as liberalism), where anyone that doesn't fall strictly into line with the consensus is shouted down, with increasing hysteria. Anything that shakes that mentality is a good thing in my view.

    and
    Gravelly wrote: »
    I see lots of lies there - you really don't like being forced to debate, do you? No wonder you don't want to allow others to hold opinions.

    where there any people who hold a different opinion welcome at the meeting ?


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    #109
    Arthur Daley
    Registered Users Posts: 4,384 ✭✭✭Arthur Daley


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Mortgages would be dearer though (if obtainable at all) due to sky high interest rates.

    Mortgages are barely being issued at the moment by the way. And that's with the current zero interest rates that hit depositors. So let's not pretend the garden is rosy for everyone.


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    #110
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Gravelly wrote: »
    I see lots of lies there - you really don't like being forced to debate, do you? No wonder you don't want to allow others to hold opinions.
    knipex wrote: »
    I think its just more evidence that freedom of speech and even the right to disagree is under threat..

    There appears to be no right to disagree anymore you are part of the group think or its open season..

    Ye gods, when did we start confusing "the right to disagree" with "the right to disagree without criticism"?


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    #111
    Gravelly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Ye gods, when did we start confusing "the right to disagree" with "the right to disagree without criticism"?

    Dunno - when did you? I have repeatedly said, even encouraged, challenge and debate on this thread, but some believe that the "mentally unwell" who hold counter opinions should be banned from speaking those opinions.


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    #112
    Gravelly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    weisses wrote: »
    from

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/farage-tells-irexit-conference-eu-humiliated-ireland-36564549.html

    How does that sit with your position in the post below ?



    and



    where there any people who hold a different opinion welcome at the meeting ?

    This is hilarious - I have disagreed with those who want to stop people from being allowed to hold counter opinions, and you are comparing this to not being allowed to shout people down at a ticketed event? In that case, shouldn't I be allowed to stand in front of the screen in my local cinema, screaming abuse, if I don't like the movie? Or jump onstage at a U2 concert to challenge Bono on his tax affairs? As I said in a previous post, those who are terrified that somebody, somewhere, might say something nasty about the EU needn't worry - it won't be dismantled from a meeting in the mansion house - if people run for office, or attempt to hold a referendum, then challenge and debate them. It's frightening how many people on a politics forum don't seem to understand basic precepts around free speech.


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    #113
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    The Brits who are in far larger are having a hell of a time with Brexit. Most of the claims by Brexiters seem to have been largely delusional, and it seems the same with the Irexit bunch, who imo another collection of reactionary clowns, who will happily destroy the countries economy due to there own prejudices and obsessions.
    The UKs current troubles should be a lesson to us, to not follow them on a ruinous path.


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    #114
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Arthur Daley wrote: »
    Mortgages are barely being issued at the moment by the way. And that's with the current zero interest rates that hit depositors. So let's not pretend the garden is rosy for everyone.
    Wait... are you anti-mortgage or anti-low-interest? I'm confused here.


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    #115
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Gravelly wrote: »
    Dunno - when did you? I have repeatedly said, even encouraged, challenge and debate on this thread, but some believe that the "mentally unwell" who hold counter opinions should be banned from speaking those opinions.

    As far as I can see, that's a complete fabrication on your part. Your entire contribution to this thread has been little more than a straw man factory, where you insist that other people are trying to silence dissent and berating them for it.

    Contrary to what you keep loudly insisting, nobody is arguing that people who want us the leave the EU should be silenced or prevented from expressing their opinions. But those views are not exempt from scrutiny, rebuttal, and indeed ridicule, nor should they be.


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    #116
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Gravelly wrote: »
    Are you sure - ok, they haven't been jailed or force fed (yet!) but the mockery, and accusations of insanity are remarkably similar.

    Oh no, mockery! It's next to fascism! Or, it is me expressing my opinion, which you said earlier we all have a right to do.

    And Brexit really is bonkers, as the UK will learn in the next couple of years (assuming it is not called off).


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    #117
    BabyCheeses
    Closed Accounts Posts: 778 ✭✭✭BabyCheeses


    There is no space for a party that wants to leave the EU, maybe a party that wants to stay out of some aspects of the EU but Ireland would still remain a member. A party that wants us to leave would have to go through a lot of effort to explain how it would be done and how we would be better off, whining about the EU wouldn't be enough.

    A party that wants to consider the pros and cons of EU policy would need to be based in reality and not just being a contrarian for the sake of it which is what many of these parties end up doing. They should also avoid Farage like the plague, he offers nothing of value.

    If a party could show that we would be beteer off outside of the EU and how it will be done then I would be all for it, for some reason nobody can show it and instead just rant off soundbites.
    Arthur Daley wrote: »
    But let's face it the British won't get that chance for meaningful exit. And I suggest everyone just thinks about that over the next 15 months.

    Exactly, they did no preparing and supporters came up with random ideas that were quickly dropped once the vote was decided. Why would we want to do the same? Why won't Farage just bail at the first opportunity? He is clearly doing this out of his dislike for the EU and not for the good of us.


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    #118
    Arthur Daley
    Registered Users Posts: 4,384 ✭✭✭Arthur Daley


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    Wait... are you anti-mortgage or anti-low-interest? I'm confused here.

    I'd like to see sustainable mortgages, sustainable housing costs, and a true interest rate myself. Also when you lend Anglo Irish Bank capital at above normal rates of return, you have assumed risk to get that return. Risk of default and so you take losses when the Bank defaults as the first creditor in line.


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    #119
    Gravelly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    As far as I can see, that's a complete fabrication on your part. Your entire contribution to this thread has been little more than a straw man factory, where you insist that other people are trying to silence dissent and berating them for it.

    Contrary to what you keep loudly insisting, nobody is arguing that people who want us the leave the EU should be silenced or prevented from expressing their opinions. But those views are not exempt from scrutiny, rebuttal, and indeed ridicule, nor should they be.

    No?
    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    I think we shouldn't give platforms or validity to people who talk absolute nonsense and admit with pride that they don't really have a clue what the consequences of their proposed actions would be, but that they want to just shake things up. That's anarchy.


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    #120
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Arthur Daley wrote: »
    But let's face it the British won't get that chance for meaningful exit. And I suggest everyone just thinks about that over the next 15 months.

    If you mean that when they reach the very edge of the precipice, they decide not to jump and try to grow wings, I hope you are correct.


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    #121
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,904 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Arthur Daley wrote: »
    Mortgages are barely being issued at the moment by the way. And that's with the current zero interest rates that hit depositors. So let's not pretend the garden is rosy for everyone.

    The problem, in the Dublin area at least, is that people can't save up a big enough deposit, especially while renting, and can't find properties they can afford to buy while staying within the Central Bank rules.

    High interest rates don't benefit savers anyway because they go hand in hand with high inflation.

    You are just casually proposing to impoverish almost everyone in this country with no justification put forward. Why?

    Life ain't always empty.



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