Irexit party yay or nay?

Zubeneschamali · 06-02-2018 3:09pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

Contrary to what you keep loudly insisting, nobody is arguing that people who want us the leave the EU should be silenced or prevented from expressing their opinions.

I, for one, think they should be allowed to stand on a soap box on the corner of Merrion Square and address their multitudes of followers any time they want.

Gravelly · 06-02-2018 3:10pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Oh no, mockery! It's next to fascism! Or, it is me expressing my opinion, which you said earlier we all have a right to do.

And Brexit really is bonkers, as the UK will learn in the next couple of years (assuming it is not called off).

Point out where I made any suggestion or attempt to silence you opinion? (I'll wait). So you see no parallel between how those who wanted votes for women were seen a hundred years ago, and how those who want more democracy in the EU are seen now? None so blind, and all that.

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oscarBravo · 06-02-2018 3:16pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I, for one, think they should be allowed to stand on a soap box on the corner of Merrion Square and address their multitudes of followers any time they want.

So do I. I only have a problem with the idea that we're not allowed to point and laugh while they do so.

Zubeneschamali · 06-02-2018 3:18pm

Gravelly wrote: »

Point out where I made any suggestion or attempt to silence you opinion? (I'll wait).

I never suggested that you did any such thing.

Quin_Dub · 06-02-2018 3:19pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

As far as I can see, that's a complete fabrication on your part. Your entire contribution to this thread has been little more than a straw man factory, where you insist that other people are trying to silence dissent and berating them for it.

Contrary to what you keep loudly insisting, nobody is arguing that people who want us the leave the EU should be silenced or prevented from expressing their opinions. But those views are not exempt from scrutiny, rebuttal, and indeed ridicule, nor should they be.

Gravelly wrote: »

No?

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

That's not what I said at all.

I think we shouldn't give platforms or validity to people who talk absolute nonsense and admit with pride that they don't really have a clue what the consequences of their proposed actions would be, but that they want to just shake things up. That's anarchy.

You're confusing the right to speak with peoples right not to listen.

If someone approached me and said "I'd like to talk about Space exploration" , I'd say , "Great , let's talk".. but they then add "The moon is made of Green Cheese , we should go there and get the cheese" to that statement that pretty much ends any discussion right there , regardless of any validity the rest of their opinions on Space exploration might have.

It's exactly the same with discussions on the EU..

Perfectly valid to say " The EU isn't working well for everyone" - I'd agree and would happily debate , but adding "we should just leave" to that statement is pretty much a discussion killer as it's a nonsense position to hold.

People are perfectly entitled to hold whatever opinion they wish , what they are not entitled to is for those opinions to automatically be granted "authenticity" for the want of a better word.

There has been ZERO evidence put forward by anyone suggesting that Ireland (or anyone else) leaving the EU will have a positive impact.

The standard Exit position is this "The EU are terrible , they've done XYZ , let's leave , we can do better on our own"

But when asked to show HOW a country would be better on it's own , we get silence or obfuscation.

Arthur Daley · 06-02-2018 3:19pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You are just casually proposing to impoverish almost everyone in this country with no justification put forward. Why?

Again EU=loads a money
Outside EU = black hole of Calcutta.

Rinse and repeat this dogma every time since 1972. I wasn't at this RDS meeting but I believe argurments were put forward by Farage and co. around Ireland's fisheries, possible gas and oil fields and agriculture exports outside the confines of the EU. It would be interesting to tease these out further if a party got up and running.

A majority in Britain don't buy this arguement anymore. It's time some of us questionned it also. Unless and until this thinking is broken we are just going to go on supposing.

Gravelly · 06-02-2018 3:21pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I never suggested that you did any such thing.

Perhaps I misread this then, I read it as you insinuating that I was trying to stop you expressing your opinion? (if that's not the insinuation, the sentence doesn't appear to make much sense).

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Oh no, mockery! It's next to fascism! Or, it is me expressing my opinion, which you said earlier we all have a right to do.

Gravelly · 06-02-2018 3:23pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

You're confusing the right to speak with peoples right not to listen.

No, I'm not. The line quoted:

I think we shouldn't give platforms or validity to people who talk absolute nonsense and admit with pride that they don't really have a clue what the consequences of their proposed actions would be, but that they want to just shake things up. That's anarchy.

Cannot be read as the right not to listen.

Quin_Dub · 06-02-2018 3:27pm

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Again EU=loads a money
Outside EU = black hole of Calcutta.

Rinse and repeat this dogma every time since 1972. I wasn't at this RDS meeting but I believe argurments were put forward by Farage and co. around Ireland's fisheries, possible gas and oil fields and agriculture exports outside the confines of the EU. It would be interesting to tease these out further if a party got up and running.

A majority in Britain don't buy this arguement anymore. It's time some of us questionned it also. Unless and until this thinking is broken we are just going to go on supposing.

Totally agree , but Farage and his ilk are not saying that , they are saying "Leave first , tease out later" which is what has happened in the UK.

As many here have said , happy to have a reasoned debate on the merits of leaving the EU , backed up with facts and plans etc. etc.

But anyone that believes that following the UK and leaving without a plan is a good idea is not someone I'm even interested in starting a conversation with.

The Problem statement is "The EU is not delivering the right level of benefits to all of it's member states and population"

The solution does not start with "Leave" - It might END with leave , which is fine if that's where we all end up after fully vetting the options , but that's not what any of Pro-Exit groups are saying..

That's the issue here.

Podge_irl · 06-02-2018 3:29pm

There is also a difference between attempting to silence someone and simply ignoring them. I would also be curious to see some of this virulent media coverage of the event. Most of what I've seen has been generic bog standard reporting with some quotes. Ultimately it was a fringe political event that is not in danger of leading to anything substantial.

It is likely easier for some people to think their opinion is being silenced because of fear then realising their opinion is being ignored because its viewed as worthless.

weisses · 06-02-2018 3:31pm

Gravelly wrote: »

This is hilarious - I have disagreed with those who want to stop people from being allowed to hold counter opinions, and you are comparing this to not being allowed to shout people down at a ticketed event? In that case, shouldn't I be allowed to stand in front of the screen in my local cinema, screaming abuse, if I don't like the movie? Or jump onstage at a U2 concert to challenge Bono on his tax affairs? As I said in a previous post, those who are terrified that somebody, somewhere, might say something nasty about the EU needn't worry - it won't be dismantled from a meeting in the mansion house - if people run for office, or attempt to hold a referendum, then challenge and debate them. It's frightening how many people on a politics forum don't seem to understand basic precepts around free speech.

Then You disagree with the terms of the meeting Saturday which states people with different opinions are not welcome ...Thanks for confirming

the rest of your post comes over as a bit hysterical tbh

I think the only wanted mouthpieces there because a coherent reply to a simple challenging question would be difficult... Not that they care anyway

Seth Brundle · 06-02-2018 3:32pm

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Mortgages are barely being issued at the moment by the way. And that's with the current zero interest rates that hit depositors. So let's not pretend the garden is rosy for everyone.

That's simply not true.
Mortgages may be more difficult to obtain now compared to when people were beuing handed out 110% loans with little chance of them being properly stress tested!

demfad · 06-02-2018 3:34pm

Farage admires and supports a dictator in Moscow who has his politicians, journalists and business people assasinated routinely.
He approved Russia's annexation of Crimea and approves their continuing war on Ukraine.
His party and his donors are being investigated for their sources for funding for the Brexit campaign.
He is an FBI person of interest in the Trump-Russia investigation.
He is best friends with white supremacists Robert Mercer and Steve Bannon.
He will bring Mercer's tools to Ireland: Cambridge Analytica, Breitbart, Internet bots and paid trolls.
Farage only seeks to hurt us. To use us to hurt the enemies of the far-right and Russia.

He just wants a conversation about Ireland leaving?

Don't give him it. Don't give these fascists air. Have no doubt: Trump, Mercer, Bannon, Farage. That's what they are.

Don't give them the conversation and allow them to blow it out of all proportions.

One and only post on this nothing thread.

Let the liars and mislead talk to themselves.

Gravelly · 06-02-2018 3:34pm

weisses wrote: »

Then You disagree with the terms of the meeting Saturday which states people with different opinions are not welcome ...Thanks for confirming

the rest of your post comes over as a bit hysterical tbh

I think the only wanted mouthpieces there because a coherent reply to a simple challenging question would be difficult... Not that they care anyway

Pretty poor effort. "coming over as a bit hysterical" seems a popular refrain with the anti-free speech advocates. Yet again reminds me of the coverage of the suffragette movement - all those "hysterical" women looking for democracy.

I won't repeat the basics of free speech again for you, I've posted them several times already.

Gravelly · 06-02-2018 3:35pm

demfad wrote: »

Farage admires and supports a dictator in Moscow who has his politicians, journalists and business people assasinated routinely.
He approved Russia's annexation of Crimea and approves their continuing war on Ukraine.
His party and his donors are being investigated for their sources for funding for the Brexit campaign.
He is an FBI person of interest in the Trump-Russia investigation.
He is best friends with white supremacists Robert Mercer and Steve Bannon.
He will bring Mercer's tools to Ireland: Cambridge Analytica, Breitbart, Internet bots and paid trolls.
Farage only seeks to hurt us. To use us to hurt the enemies of the far-right and Russia.

He just wants a conversation about Ireland leaving?

Don't give him it. Don't give these fascists air. Have no doubt: Trump, Mercer, Bannon, Farage. That's what they are.

Don't give them the conversation and allow them to blow it out of all proportions.

One and only post on this nothing thread.

At least this one is honest in his intentions!

Arthur Daley · 06-02-2018 3:40pm

Quin_Dub wrote: »

But anyone that believes that following the UK and leaving without a plan is a good idea is not someone I'm even interested in starting a conversation with.

The Problem statement is "The EU is not delivering the right level of benefits to all of it's member states and population"

The solution does not start with "Leave" - It might END with leave , which is fine if that's where we all end up after fully vetting the options , but that's not what any of Pro-Exit groups are saying..

That's the issue here.

That is also largely a re run of the 2016 Brexit referendum. Britain reached a conclusion that it has spent decades trying to reform the EU. They got frustrated and decided it was not reformable. So they decided to exit. We are a lot further along the process than people think, but having a sizeable minority of people think like this is new to Ireland. People think Ireland is different. To an extent it is. But I'd suggest the experience in many parts of Ireland is not millions of miles away from that of Brexit voting constituencies in Northern England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Arthur Daley · 06-02-2018 3:42pm

kbannon wrote: »

That's simply not true.
Mortgages may be more difficult to obtain now compared to when people were beuing handed out 110% loans with little chance of them being properly stress tested!

What difference does it make if I can't get a mortgage?

Zubeneschamali · 06-02-2018 3:44pm

Gravelly wrote: »

Perhaps I misread this then, I read it as you insinuating that I was trying to stop you expressing your opinion? (if that's not the insinuation, the sentence doesn't appear to make much sense).

I have literally no idea how you could imagine that my sentence insinuates any such thing. Seriously, let's have a look:

I said: "Oh no! Mockery! It's next to fascism!"

This is pretty broad sarcasm in response to your claim that mockery means the targets are close to Suffragette levels of persecution, and your earlier hyperbole about fascistic repression of dissenting views.

Then I said: "Or, it is me expressing my opinion, which you said earlier we all have a right to do."

Here I simply point out that mockery is a form of expression of opinion, which you earlier stated you support.

Neither of these suggests that I think you are trying to prevent anything, merely that your equation of any and all mockery with the treatment of Suffragettes is silly.

Professor Moriarty · 06-02-2018 3:45pm

Arthur Daley wrote: »

That is also largely a re run of the 2016 Brexit referendum. Britain reached a conclusion that it has spent decades trying to reform the EU. They got frustrated and decided it was not reformable. So they decided to exit. We are a lot further along the process than people think, but having a sizeable minority of people think like this is new to Ireland. People think Ireland is different. To an extent it is. But I'd suggest the experience in many parts of Ireland is not millions of miles away from that of Brexit voting constituencies in Northern England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Which parts of Ireland? Which parts of the UK do they compare to? How large and how populous are the respective parts?

ancapailldorcha · 06-02-2018 3:48pm

Arthur Daley wrote: »

That is also largely a re run of the 2016 Brexit referendum. Britain reached a conclusion that it has spent decades trying to reform the EU. They got frustrated and decided it was not reformable. So they decided to exit. We are a lot further along the process than people think, but having a sizeable minority of people think like this is new to Ireland. People think Ireland is different. To an extent it is. But I'd suggest the experience in many parts of Ireland is not millions of miles away from that of Brexit voting constituencies in Northern England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

This is just utter nonsense. People were fed all sort of nonsense and fantasies such as a better funded health service by the people responsible for choking the health service, fewer foreigners solving all the country's ills and a free trading utopia unfettered by EU regulations that nobody can name. It was brought to a head by a weak Tory leader trying to satisfy the lunatic wing of his own party.

CrabRevolution · 06-02-2018 3:51pm

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Again EU=loads a money
Outside EU = black hole of Calcutta.

Rinse and repeat this dogma every time since 1972. I wasn't at this RDS meeting but I believe argurments were put forward by Farage and co. around Ireland's fisheries, possible gas and oil fields and agriculture exports outside the confines of the EU. It would be interesting to tease these out further if a party got up and running.

A majority in Britain don't buy this arguement anymore. It's time some of us questionned it also. Unless and until this thinking is broken we are just going to go on supposing.

The old "the catastrophic unemployment caused by leaving the EU will be solved by everyone becoming fishermen and fish gutters" argument is amazing in how anyone believes it. Sounds like year zero with the khmer rouge, bankers and bioengineers taking up jobs in trawlers.

Also, despite importing most of our gas and never having pumped one barrel of commercial oil, we will somehow start exporting oil and gas? You may as well plan on hitting a vein of diamonds.

It's a meaningless claim anyway, considering the fact that nothing in the EU stops us from exploiting our oil+gas resources.

Gravelly · 06-02-2018 3:53pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I have literally no idea how you could imagine that my sentence insinuates any such thing. Seriously, let's have a look:

I said: "Oh no! Mockery! It's next to fascism!"

This is pretty broad sarcasm in response to your claim that mockery means the targets are close to Suffragette levels of persecution, and your earlier hyperbole about fascistic repression of dissenting views.

Then I said: "Or, it is me expressing my opinion, which you said earlier we all have a right to do."

Here I simply point out that mockery is a form of expression of opinion, which you earlier stated you support.

Neither of these suggests that I think you are trying to prevent anything, merely that your equation of any and all mockery with the treatment of Suffragettes is silly.

You are quite confused by all this, aren't you? :rolleyes:

Zubeneschamali · 06-02-2018 3:54pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

People were fed all sort of nonsense and fantasies such as a better funded health service by the people responsible for choking the health service, fewer foreigners solving all the country's ills and a free trading utopia unfettered by EU regulations that nobody can name.

Factor in that the Tories and Labour were both officially for Remain, so you can add in a protest vote against the whole political class, the desire to black Westminsters eye in a vote that didn't require voters to pick Red or Blue.

ancapailldorcha · 06-02-2018 3:54pm

Gravelly wrote: »

You are quite confused by all this, aren't you? :rolleyes:

Cut out the snide digs.

Gravelly · 06-02-2018 3:56pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Cut out the snide digs.

Only me? The ones directed my way are fine, yeah?

ancapailldorcha · 06-02-2018 3:56pm

Gravelly wrote: »

Only me? The ones directed my way are fine, yeah?

Report them, please. Please don't question mod warnings on thread.

Arthur Daley · 06-02-2018 4:00pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Which parts of Ireland? Which parts of the UK do they compare to? How large and how populous are the respective parts?

We could argue on this until mid 2019. If someone sets up a sizeable Eurosceptic party and runs in each constituency in the European parliament elections in June 2019, we can find out, fairly conclusively.

Professor Moriarty · 06-02-2018 4:04pm

Arthur Daley wrote: »

We could argue on this until mid 2019. If someone sets up a sizeable Eurosceptic party and runs in each constituency in the European parliament elections in June 2019, we can find out, fairly conclusively.

Indeed. Based on current voting intentions, they would be wasting their time and money.

ancapailldorcha · 06-02-2018 4:05pm

Arthur Daley wrote: »

We could argue on this until mid 2019. If someone sets up a sizeable Eurosceptic party and runs in each constituency in the European parliament elections in June 2019, we can find out, fairly conclusively.

What sort of platform would they run on? Is there massive hostility towards the EU in Ireland? If so, how would a post-exit Ireland fare better than an Ireland inside the EU?

Zubeneschamali · 06-02-2018 4:07pm

CrabRevolution wrote: »

The old "the catastrophic unemployment caused by leaving the EU will be solved by everyone becoming fishermen and fish gutters" argument is amazing in how anyone believes it.

Irish fish exports

1973: 92,000 tons

2014: 260,000 tons

Those EU scallywags!

Irexit party yay or nay?

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