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Rents to rise to 2500 a month in Dublin

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    #32
    Browney7
    Registered Users Posts: 3,098 ✭✭✭Browney7


    rossmores wrote: »
    Revenue takes 1/2 that rent from the landlord

    And dividends from stock market investments, coupon payments on bonds etc. Why should rental income obtained from property investment be different?


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    #33
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Browney7 wrote: »
    And dividends from stock market investments, coupon payments on bonds etc. Why should rental income obtained from property investment be different?

    I thought they were subject to cap gains? Either way no one is suggesting it should be any different, but this misconception that LL's aren't contributing to society is getting a bit old.

    Also being honest about it after deductible expenses we're not paying 52% we're paying less than that but it doesn't change the fact that if the government was serious about sorting the rental crisis out it would reinstate rent relief for tenants.


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    #34
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Funny how nobody is saying its all lies and industry propaganda.
    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=79006148


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    #35
    Browney7
    Registered Users Posts: 3,098 ✭✭✭Browney7


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    I thought they were subject to cap gains? Either way no one is suggesting it should be any different, but this misconception that LL's aren't contributing to society is getting a bit old.

    Also being honest about it after deductible expenses we're not paying 52% we're paying less than that but it doesn't change the fact that if the government was serious about sorting the rental crisis out it would reinstate rent relief for tenants.

    You pay capital gains on gains in the share price. (Small annual tax free allowance in this regime which also applies to property capital gains).If you receive a 1000 dividend income off Vodafone or Coca Cola for instance you pay income tax on it. If you paid 20k for the shares and sell for 30k you pay capital gains. If you borrowed to invest in those shares you wouldn't get the 80% interest write off either although you'd likely use spreadbetting for this which is considered gambling


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    #36
    SlinkyL
    Registered Users Posts: 87 ✭✭SlinkyL


    BillyBobBS wrote: »
    Fail to prepare, prepare to fail. Irish governments housing policy has been a mess for the last 30 years and i see absolutely nothing indicating that is going to change anytime soon.

    Depends on your point of view.. if you are an ordinary person who needs somewhere to live..total disaster.....

    if you are an investor, landlord, financial institution, this has been hugely successful, property prices have only gone up and when there has been blips in that trend, e.g., price crash circa 2008, Government policies such as stopping building the very scant amount of social housing that was being (this really stopped back in 80s),relying on private sector to for social housing via HAP and similar schemes, transferring state money to private property owners, creating Nama which ultimately sold off now publicly owned property after bailouts back to private interests at a loss to state..inviting vulture funds in to hoover up any slightly more affordable apartments preventing ordinary people with no access to credit from purchasing them, I could go on....section 23 tax incentives in the 1990s, tax incentives now for landlords by way of mortgage interest relief..
    Thiis not caused by ineptness nor is it accidental...it’s a hugely successful policy for those with enough €€€€ to invest in property. God help the rest of us.. I feel very lucky to have bought a small house in 2006.
    I truly despair for those younger than me in the rental market. I hate that my city has become so difficult to live in...I despair for my children, just primary school aged now, I feel sad when they talk about what they want to do when they grow up because I know most ordinary jobs are not enough anymore.. We have to demand better... we have to stop voting in the parties who have failed us ordinary people again and again and again...


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    #37
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    Many types of jobs are only in Dublin or only in Dublin with any meaningful supply. My wife can only work where there is a major University and ideally more than one so that's Cork/Limerick, Galway at a push and Dublin/Maynooth. All of which are expensive. Luckily we bought and weren't to snobby about where we lived so pay a very reasonable mortgage in a working class (meant in the true sense of the word) area of Dublin.

    Ah you know that area is gentrifying. On the dart etc. Smart though.


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    #38
    _Puma_
    Registered Users Posts: 949 ✭✭✭_Puma_


    SlinkyL wrote: »
    Depends on your point of view.. if you are an ordinary person who needs somewhere to live..total disaster.....

    if you are an investor, landlord, financial institution, this has been hugely successful, property prices have only gone up and when there has been blips in that trend, e.g., price crash circa 2008, Government policies such as stopping building the very scant amount of social housing that was being (this really stopped back in 80s),relying on private sector to for social housing via HAP and similar schemes, transferring state money to private property owners, creating Nama which ultimately sold off now publicly owned property after bailouts back to private interests at a loss to state..inviting vulture funds in to hoover up any slightly more affordable apartments preventing ordinary people with no access to credit from purchasing them, I could go on....section 23 tax incentives in the 1990s, tax incentives now for landlords by way of mortgage interest relief..
    Thiis not caused by ineptness nor is it accidental...it’s a hugely successful policy for those with enough €€€€ to invest in property. God help the rest of us.. I feel very lucky to have bought a small house in 2006.
    I truly despair for those younger than me in the rental market. I hate that my city has become so difficult to live in...I despair for my children, just primary school aged now, I feel sad when they talk about what they want to do when they grow up because I know most ordinary jobs are not enough anymore.. We have to demand better... we have to stop voting in the parties who have failed us ordinary people again and again and again...

    This times a hundred. Noonan conceived it, Coveney executed it and Murphy is keeping it on track. If you are caught up in this mess and vote for the Incumbent government parties you need to have a good long look at yourself in the mirror.


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    #39
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    rossmores wrote: »
    Revenue takes 1/2 that rent from the landlord

    This is where the marginal rate is a killer. Imagine a worker on the higher tax rate who gets a 6000€ raise. That’s 500 a month pre tax. 250 after tax. Let’s say his rent increases by 250 a month. All his gains are wiped out. His landlord is a mere 125€ richer. Which is why the marginal tax needs to come in at a much higher rate.


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    #40
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,066 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    rossmores wrote: »
    Revenue takes 1/2 that rent from the landlord

    Half the net rental profit, not half the rent.


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    #41
    JJJJNR
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭JJJJNR


    Why stay in Dublin, anywhere along the east coast from dundalk to arklow with a train station should still be fairly ok rent wise. There are two beds to rent in rathdrum for 600 a month last time I checked. Poor little snowflakes.


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    #42
    Mtx
    Registered Users Posts: 201 ✭✭Mtx


    Why are so many graduates working in Dublin then? I'm confused. Surely they must be counting pennies.


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    #43
    April 73
    Registered Users Posts: 846 ✭✭✭April 73


    Fann Linn wrote: »
    Spot on. The sister in law is in accomodation in Cabra where the state is paying her landlord €1400 pm. She however has to pay another €475 under the counter to them. Asking prices are not relevant when the person behind you in the queue is prepared to pay more.

    This isn’t a dig at your sister-in-law Fann Linn, but I’m fascinated by the process and how this works. She works in a hospital & her partner works in a bar? They live in Cabra & the state pays €1400 a month in rent to a private LL? I presume at other times in our history they would have qualified for a council house.
    But why must they live in Cabra? If the state wasn’t paying that rent then people would have no choice but to move to a part of the country where their jobs cover the cost of living. There are hospitals & bars all over the country & with much cheaper housing.
    It’d be lovely for us all to live close to our jobs, but our incomes generally dictate where we live. That’s certainly the case when you qualify for nothing from the state. It’s why I leave my house at 6.30am to commute to work in the centre of Dublin & often don’t get home til 7.30pm.


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    #44
    Malayalam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,189 ✭✭✭Malayalam


    SlinkyL wrote: »
    Depends on your point of view.. if you are an ordinary person who needs somewhere to live..total disaster.....

    if you are an investor, landlord, financial institution, this has been hugely successful, property prices have only gone up and when there has been blips in that trend, e.g., price crash circa 2008, Government policies such as stopping building the very scant amount of social housing that was being (this really stopped back in 80s),relying on private sector to for social housing via HAP and similar schemes, transferring state money to private property owners, creating Nama which ultimately sold off now publicly owned property after bailouts back to private interests at a loss to state..inviting vulture funds in to hoover up any slightly more affordable apartments preventing ordinary people with no access to credit from purchasing them, I could go on....section 23 tax incentives in the 1990s, tax incentives now for landlords by way of mortgage interest relief..
    Thiis not caused by ineptness nor is it accidental...it’s a hugely successful policy for those with enough €€€€ to invest in property. God help the rest of us.. I feel very lucky to have bought a small house in 2006.
    I truly despair for those younger than me in the rental market. I hate that my city has become so difficult to live in...I despair for my children, just primary school aged now, I feel sad when they talk about what they want to do when they grow up because I know most ordinary jobs are not enough anymore.. We have to demand better... we have to stop voting in the parties who have failed us ordinary people again and again and again...

    That day does come around, unfortunately. The day when your grown up children, who are bright and hard-working and good, turn around and say to you, fcuk it, I don't think I will ever be able to buy a house, ever. They will say I don't know how people live on the wages I am getting, even though I have worked really hard, have a PhD, and have a lot to offer to the world. Etc.

    There is certainly something seriously messed up on so many levels in the economic and political systems - but I would be here all day going into that - and it is the present and future generations who will have to live with it.

    When your children say that to you - and they will, mine have said it to me - you will have to explain to them how they will have to find meaning and balance within the insecurity, how they will have to adapt to the realities of the global economic system with as much wisdom and pragmatism as possible, how they will have to balance their dreams and aspirations against stress, fine-tuning how much is acceptable to them. There are options they could choose if they don't want to play that game any more - lots of ways to live a meaningful, content life, with little money, if one is prepared.

    It is simply a fact that right now the buying power of ordinary folk has been seriously constrained as compared to former generations. Wealth and ownership has been concentrated ever more into the hands of ever fewer. It is one of the biggest problems I see in our time - this subtle creep of wealth to the top of the pyramid - but it is largely ignored. People are entertained and amused as consumers and do not see how they are being economically castrated. If one looks at it from an over-arching point of view, this is an expected situation - small finite planet, finite resources, finite land, limited physical assets, ores, raw materials for production - of course those who own most now are going to continuously try to acquire and hoard as much of those finite resources as they possibly can, so that in the end the very, very few will own almost everything, and the rest of us own almost nothing - it is the natural narrative arc for the situation we live in. I am not conspiratorial - it makes perfect sense in a selfish story. And those who do not think the story is selfish are naive. As much as I have wished for it not to be selfish, history tells me a different truth.


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    #45
    strandsman
    Registered Users Posts: 393 ✭✭strandsman


    I can't understand why some IT professionals or other who can work mostly from home don't move out to the midlands and pay rent of 600pm or purchase for 100K . Even if a person had to commute to Dublin for 1-2 days a week how bad? Take Cashel for example, 700pm rent and 90 mins from Dublin/Cork/Limerick/Galway. Why do people go through with the missery of 600K mortgage, 2K rent, Traffic congestion etc etc. When will people cop on to the fact that the reason why living is so expensive in Dublin is because all the Jobs are there. If the jobs were spread around the country then people can return to or near their place of origin instead of moving to Dublin for work. On the other hand I know a few people living in Dublin because they say there is nothing for their profession closer to home and they speak of the misery of living in Dublin but when I suggest that they would be better off financially to locate closer to home and change profession or work in a shop or open a local practice etc they say they couldn't mainly because their profession and career is so important to them! Brain washed I say!


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    #46
    bigpink
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,552 ✭✭✭bigpink


    Surely all theae non eu people here are driving rents up
    Seems to be tonnes of Brazilians Indians etc here
    Just going by Facebook rent groups


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    #47
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Geuze wrote: »
    Half the net rental profit, not half the rent.

    Nope, the tax is calculated on the entire income. Yes you can write off expenses against tax and mortgage interest at 75% (80% this year) but then so can any other business (@100%).


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    #48
    super_furry
    Registered Users Posts: 27,321 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    bigpink wrote: »
    Surely all theae non eu people here are driving rents up
    Seems to be tonnes of Brazilians Indians etc here
    Just going by Facebook rent groups

    It's really, really, really not.


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    #49
    LirW
    Registered Users Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭LirW


    strandsman wrote: »
    I can't understand why some IT professionals or other who can work mostly from home don't move out to the midlands and pay rent of 600pm or purchase for 100K . Even if a person had to commute to Dublin for 1-2 days a week how bad? Take Cashel for example, 700pm rent and 90 mins from Dublin/Cork/Limerick/Galway. Why do people go through with the missery of 600K mortgage, 2K rent, Traffic congestion etc etc. When will people cop on to the fact that the reason why living is so expensive in Dublin is because all the Jobs are there. If the jobs were spread around the country then people can return to or near their place of origin instead of moving to Dublin for work. On the other hand I know a few people living in Dublin because they say there is nothing for their profession closer to home and they speak of the misery of living in Dublin but when I suggest that they would be better off financially to locate closer to home and change profession or work in a shop or open a local practice etc they say they couldn't mainly because their profession and career is so important to them! Brain washed I say!

    There is no way in hell you do Cashel - Dublin in 90 minutes during the week if you have to leave from within the M50.
    Also IT staff needs stable internet, that's a huge problem in a lot of rural and affordable areas.
    Ireland doesn't have the infrastructure beyond Dublin to accommodate remote workforce. And I'm not talking about people that live in once-off housing, there are a lot of people in commuter towns that have a bad broadband connection that wouldn't allow remote working.

    Also changing profession or shop-work is all nice but a lot of the areas you have in mind have virtually no job vacancies. For everything that comes up, you have 100 people that instantly jump at it.


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    #50
    piplip87
    Registered Users Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭piplip87


    Two things need to happen hand in hand for this to get better.
    1)- More apartments, less social housing within the city centre. Its absolute stupidity that long term unemployed people are sitting in flats in the city centre.

    It may sound harsh but move them out to the suburbs or down the country. Take these council owned flats, do them up, rent to workers at reasonable rates. Even 600pm will pay off the costs of repairs in a couple of years. This will drive down prices of private rentals. The building of new social housing units I outside the city could provide jobs.

    2)- Public Transport. Bus loads leave my town every morning, Virginia co Cavan, the same with Navan and Kells. It can take over two hours. If you have a city centre job its OK. We need investment in rail.

    Examples of rail route
    Leaves Cavan services the same route as the bus. Run bus services from surrounding areas (Ballyjamesduff,Oldcastle for example for Virginia) to train station, have free parking at the train stations.

    This will encourage more people to look outside Dublin and if new rail links where inserted in all commuter route would cut back on traffic too.


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    #51
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    LirW wrote: »
    There is no way in hell you do Cashel - Dublin in 90 minutes during the week if you have to leave from within the M50.
    Also IT staff needs stable internet, that's a huge problem in a lot of rural and affordable areas.
    Ireland doesn't have the infrastructure beyond Dublin to accommodate remote workforce. And I'm not talking about people that live in once-off housing, there are a lot of people in commuter towns that have a bad broadband connection that wouldn't allow remote working.

    Also changing profession or shop-work is all nice but a lot of the areas you have in mind have virtually no job vacancies. For everything that comes up, you have 100 people that instantly jump at it.

    Every single commuter town along the main trunk roads have fibre now...


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    #52
    CruelCoin
    Registered Users Posts: 4,468 ✭✭✭CruelCoin


    piplip87 wrote: »
    This will encourage more people to look outside Dublin and if new rail links where inserted in all commuter route would cut back on traffic too.

    Better would be to have properly managed park and ride facilites, coupled with a city centre levy similar to london.


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    #53
    bigpink
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,552 ✭✭✭bigpink


    super_furry wrote: »
    It's really, really, really not.

    Not the cause but deffo a factor
    I see it in Limerick City centre we have tonnes of Non EU people here last 2 years


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    #54
    Mickiemcfist
    Registered Users Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭Mickiemcfist


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

    Also being honest about it after deductible expenses we're not paying 52% we're paying less than that but it doesn't change the fact that if the government was serious about sorting the rental crisis out it would reinstate rent relief for tenants.

    The absolute last thing that needs to be done is giving reliefs for tenants. That will lead to further disposable income to spend on rent & rent will increase. The only thing the government needs to do is increase supply, increase density requirements inside the M50 & increase access to pre planning construction funding. Additionally as someone mentioned above, start decreasing council houses inside the M50 by renting these out to private tenants. Ideally have no area code with more or less than 8-12% council tenants.


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    #55
    Samuel T. Cogley
    Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Mickiemcfist wrote: »
    The absolute last thing that needs to be done is giving reliefs for tenants. That will lead to further disposable income to spend on rent & rent will increase. The only thing the government needs to do is increase supply, increase density requirements inside the M50 & increase access to pre planning construction funding. Additionally as someone mentioned above, start decreasing council houses inside the M50 by renting these out to private tenants. Ideally have no area code with more or less than 8-12% council tenants.

    Not if caps are properly enforced.


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    #56
    Fann Linn
    Registered Users Posts: 7,772 ✭✭✭Fann Linn


    April 73 wrote: »
    This isn’t a dig at your sister-in-law Fann Linn, but I’m fascinated by the process and how this works. She works in a hospital & her partner works in a bar? They live in Cabra & the state pays €1400 a month in rent to a private LL? I presume at other times in our history they would have qualified for a council house.
    But why must they live in Cabra? If the state wasn’t paying that rent then people would have no choice but to move to a part of the country where their jobs cover the cost of living. There are hospitals & bars all over the country & with much cheaper housing.
    It’d be lovely for us all to live close to our jobs, but our incomes generally dictate where we live. That’s certainly the case when you qualify for nothing from the state. It’s why I leave my house at 6.30am to commute to work in the centre of Dublin & often don’t get home til 7.30pm.

    I had this very conversation with them over the Christmas. They however are not complaining, and are in fact quite happy living in Cabra where they don't need a car as they have trains, planes, buses and Luas at their feet. Furthermore, they don't need childcare as both sets of grandparents live locally and look after the kids if she is working irregular shifts. She's a cleaner/nurses aide in the hospital.

    They know they'll never be able to afford to buy a house on their wages in Dublin however if they went to buy in Longford/ Roscommon or elsewhere they would then need a car and childcare etc so catch 22 as far as they are concerned.

    Karl Deeter made an interesting point yesterday in that he said if LAs built more housing it would free up other houses for those that don't qualify. As it is the same LA or Health care unit is paying their landlord almost €17k pa as is now.
    Madness.


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    #57
    .......
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


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    #58
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,126 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    LirW wrote: »
    There is no way in hell you do Cashel - Dublin in 90 minutes during the week if you have to leave from within the M50.
    Also IT staff needs stable internet, that's a huge problem in a lot of rural and affordable areas.
    Ireland doesn't have the infrastructure beyond Dublin to accommodate remote workforce. And I'm not talking about people that live in once-off housing, there are a lot of people in commuter towns that have a bad broadband connection that wouldn't allow remote working.

    Also changing profession or shop-work is all nice but a lot of the areas you have in mind have virtually no job vacancies. For everything that comes up, you have 100 people that instantly jump at it.

    It would also mean not living in Dublin.

    I'm a single guy. If I was to move to cashel what exactly would I be doing there? If I was married it would be one thing but as a single person I'd be moving to the middle of nowhere. I'd have no friends around. The chances of meeting someone there decreases. There's no reason for me to move there except to pay less rent. And that's not worth it if I have an empty life.


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    #59
    Mickiemcfist
    Registered Users Posts: 1,585 ✭✭✭Mickiemcfist


    Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »
    Not if caps are properly enforced.

    It would be a terrible misuse of funds to spend it on rental reliefs, the best that will do will ensure tenants can afford the horrifically expensive rents - which will then continue to grow at 4%. That's best case scenario, implying nobody will be taking cash in hand or other loopholes.

    Increasing supply is the only method of reducing rents, which should surely be the priority.


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    #60
    LirW
    Registered Users Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭LirW


    CruelCoin wrote: »
    Every single commuter town along the main trunk roads have fibre now...

    Live 0.5 km out of it and that's it. Lots of commuter towns have grown so much in the last couple of years that they are clustered with former nearby villages, Gorey is a good example for it where you have loads of people living in developments in the nearby areas and they often don't have fibre.

    Anyway that's not even the problem, the problem is the lack of rental anywhere that's remotely commutable, especially when you're not the perfect tenants, like families with kids or elderly people.


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    #61
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    super_furry wrote: »
    It's really, really, really not.

    Positive immigration balance while the number of available homes is constrained and new supply is lagging behind is obviously an important factor driving rent increases.

    It is not a judgment on immigrants to say that, just basic maths and economics.

    Most economic migrants and the companies who recruit them (as well as foreign students and their education institutions) would agree to say the housing capacity is not sufficient to accommodate them properly and this is fueling crazy rent increases.


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