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Ulster Bank League 2018-2019 Talk/Gossip/Rumours

24567…34

Comments

  • #32
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Stainalert wrote: »
    Having one side in the top 8 is a bit different to having 2 teams in the top 8 and 4 in the top 16 which if I understand correctly is what is being proposed. 
    So Trinity finished 8th this season in 1A yet under the new rules wouldn't even make 1B all because of WHERE Galwegians or Corinthians play their rugby - doesn't actually matter how good Trinity are relative to Galwegians or Corinthians - that's irrelevant.
    Oh certainly but something needs to be done to assist other provinces and there's plenty of guys whove moved from Galway/Ulster clubs to play elsewhere to play 1A and could move back. It may be tough on some clubs but thats life.
    Stainalert wrote: »
    Or take another scenario: a Munster club finishes 3rd next season in 1A behind 2 other Munster teams. That mean's they are the 3rd ranked Munster team and as such will have to play in 1B the following season even though they are the 3rd best team in the country!
    What would you want to do? Its not ideal and maybe there should be changes to take into account Munster and Leinster club scene being substantially stronger than Ulster and Connacht


  • #33
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Stainalert wrote: »
    Eh it's not meritocratic at all

    Well yes its absolutely partially meritocratic. Because in your example of a Munster team finishing 3rd, the two teams above them would still be in 1a. That's partially meritocratic.


  • #34
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    Oh certainly but something needs to be done to assist other provinces and there's plenty of guys whove moved from Galway/Ulster clubs to play elsewhere to play 1A and could move back. It may be tough on some clubs but thats life.

    What would you want to do? Its not ideal and maybe there should be changes to take into account Munster and Leinster club scene being substantially stronger than Ulster and Connacht

    I'd imagine this is specifically what they're trying to address!


  • #35
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    I'd imagine this is specifically what they're trying to address!
    I know!!!
    And this is only going to go a tiny bit in addressing the issues between the provinces and clubs in each


  • #36
    Stainalert
    Registered Users Posts: 1,257 ✭✭✭Stainalert


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    Stainalert wrote: »
    Having one side in the top 8 is a bit different to having 2 teams in the top 8 and 4 in the top 16 which if I understand correctly is what is being proposed. 
    So Trinity finished 8th this season in 1A yet under the new rules wouldn't even make 1B all because of WHERE Galwegians or Corinthians play their rugby - doesn't actually matter how good Trinity are relative to Galwegians or Corinthians - that's irrelevant.
    Oh certainly but something needs to be done to assist other provinces and there's plenty of guys whove moved from Galway/Ulster clubs to play elsewhere to play 1A and could move back. It may be tough on some clubs but thats life.
    Stainalert wrote: »
    Or take another scenario: a Munster club finishes 3rd next season in 1A behind 2 other Munster teams. That mean's they are the 3rd ranked Munster team and as such will have to play in 1B the following season even though they are the 3rd best team in the country!
    What would you want to do? Its not ideal and maybe there should be changes to take into account Munster and Leinster club scene being substantially stronger than Ulster and Connacht
    As you say there should be changes to take into account Munster and Leinster club scene being substantially stronger than Ulster and Connacht


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  • #37
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    I know!!!
    And this is only going to go a tiny bit in addressing the issues between the provinces and clubs in each

    Well the provinces and clubs are getting there. There's definitely light at the end of the tunnel imo, I think there's been a bit of a realisation on both ends that they are stronger together. But its not going to happen everywhere at the same time.

    I think the best case scenario is this creates a mutually beneficial relationship between provincial academies and clubs that allows both to grow together, rather than one at the expense of any other.

    That definitely cannot be achieved in a fully meritocratic system however. That means a price to pay in Leinster and Munster, it will cause war, but its the only sustainable solution. Despite being a product of a club who will be absolutely devastated by this, I think it's a great step forward.

    Nucifora has to put himself forward as the bad guy here. Might have to move to Sligo to escape fallout!


  • #38
    Stainalert
    Registered Users Posts: 1,257 ✭✭✭Stainalert


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    Oh certainly but something needs to be done to assist other provinces and there's plenty of guys whove moved from Galway/Ulster clubs to play elsewhere to play 1A and could move back. It may be tough on some clubs but thats life.

    What would you want to do? Its not ideal and maybe there should be changes to take into account Munster and Leinster club scene being substantially stronger than Ulster and Connacht

    I'd imagine this is specifically what they're trying to address!
    The league to this point has been completely meritocratic so Munster & Leinster clubs are exactly where they deserve to be. I can understand why the IRFU want Ulster & Connacht to be in the top flight but 2 each is totally over the top and likely driven by political reasons rather than quality of rugby.


  • #39
    Stainalert
    Registered Users Posts: 1,257 ✭✭✭Stainalert


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    I know!!!
    And this is only going to go a tiny bit in addressing the issues between the provinces and clubs in each

    Well the provinces and clubs are getting there.  There's definitely light at the end of the tunnel imo, I think there's been a bit of a realisation on both ends that they are stronger together.  But its not going to happen everywhere at the same time.

    I think the best case scenario is this creates a mutually beneficial relationship between provincial academies and clubs that allows both to grow together, rather than one at the expense of any other.

    That definitely cannot be achieved in a fully meritocratic system however.  That means a price to pay in Leinster and Munster, it will cause war, but its the only sustainable solution.  Despite being a product of a club who will be absolutely devastated by this, I think it's a great step forward.

    Nucifora has to put himself forward as the bad guy here.  Might have to move to Sligo to escape fallout!
    Why do you think this will actually improve standards?


  • #40
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Stainalert wrote: »
    The league to this point has been completely meritocratic so Munster & Leinster clubs are exactly where they deserve to be. I can understand why the IRFU want Ulster & Connacht to be in the top flight but 2 each is totally over the top and likely driven by political reasons rather than quality of rugby.

    Well. Interesting debate to be had on that one, I wouldn't want to be taking either side of it!

    But yes, there'll be absolute war.


  • #41
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Stainalert wrote: »
    Why do you think this will actually improve standards?

    I think it has the potential to improve standards. Or to be damaging.

    The way I see it improving standards is a scenario where you have 4 strong professional provincial academies each backed up by a minimum of 2 top level clubs from across the country with proper coaching consultations, pathways and support that allows the standard of coaching at all clubs to be improved. All backed by union funding.

    Standard of coaching at some clubs (even some 1a clubs) is the biggest bottleneck for club rugby in my opinion at the moment. I could see the proposed setup being a huge help in that regard.


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  • #42
    shoutman
    Registered Users Posts: 6,924 ✭✭✭shoutman


    I don't suppose there is any talk on how the contracted players would be doled out to the clubs?


  • #43
    Tarf1234
    Registered Users Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭Tarf1234 


    Would be interesting to see the funding level from the IRFU and how much say they want in how it is spent. Would they be picking the S&C/Coaches etc. that the clubs have to use. One thing is for sure this will mean Reg 6 will be even more widely ignored this summer.


  • #44
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    shoutman wrote: »
    I don't suppose there is any talk on how the contracted players would be doled out to the clubs?

    I'd imagine it'd be up to them


  • #45
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Tarf1234 wrote: »
    Would be interesting to see the funding level from the IRFU and how much say they want in how it is spent. Would they be picking the S&C/Coaches etc. that the clubs have to use. One thing is for sure this will mean Reg 6 will be even more widely ignored this summer.

    Yeah I'd say enforcement of Reg 6 will pretty much disappear.

    I think the IRFU want to professionalise some of the more established clubs. Some of them are miles behind others in terms of their "maturity". How on earth you manage to get clubs to do that though... no idea.


  • #46
    GavMan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,913 ✭✭✭GavMan


    Bryan Mollen to Rock


  • #47
    stellenbosch
    Registered Users Posts: 458 ✭✭stellenbosch


    GavMan wrote: »
    Bryan Mollen to Rock

    Heard that-he will not play much as will be-like last year with Trinity-with the 7s-he played 2 out of 18 UBL games for Trinity last year.


  • #48
    slingerz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭slingerz


    the issue with the new setup is the conflict with vested interests. For example, 2 Munster teams in Premiership 1 and 2 more in Premiership 2. Cork Con and Young Munster in 1 then it will be a case of UCC and one of Shannon/Garryowen in Premiership 2 as they will want to have 2 Cork and 2 Limerick clubs in the top bracket.

    Cutting down the travel for clubs in 2A/B/C makes sense from a cost perspective alone really.

    The issue with strengthening Ulster/Connacht clubs is that players from Munster/Leinster clubs currently will be directed to these clubs for the exposure to the top level as well as them being filled with Academy/Sub Academy players. Ultimately it is structuring it so that the best players will be playing and these clubs will be the 'academy' teams for the provinces. Should see more players coming through the system rather than straight academy


  • #49
    Stainalert
    Registered Users Posts: 1,257 ✭✭✭Stainalert


    GavMan wrote: »
    Bryan Mollen to Rock
    Strange move


  • #50
    stellenbosch
    Registered Users Posts: 458 ✭✭stellenbosch


    Stainalert wrote: »
    Strange move

    Yep i agree- problem for him is that Trinitys back 3 next year when all available will be Slyvestre/Kelly and captain Colm Hogan. So maybe felt he wouldnt get game time? Also maybe was persuaded by Roche who last year left Lansdowne to join Rock and is playing with him on the 7s?

    Anyway as i said he wont be playing much 15s for Rock if in the 7s squad


  • #51
    Stainalert
    Registered Users Posts: 1,257 ✭✭✭Stainalert


    stellenbosch wrote: »
    Stainalert wrote: »
    Strange move

    Yep i agree- problem for him is that Trinitys back 3 next year when all available will be Slyvestre/Kelly and captain Colm Hogan. So maybe felt he wouldnt get game time? Also maybe was persuaded by Roche who last year left Lansdowne to join Rock and is playing with him on the 7s?

    Anyway as i said he wont be playing much 15s for Rock if in the 7s squad
    Yea possibly still very strange for a sevens international to move from a 1A club to a 2A club


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  • #52
    GavMan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,913 ✭✭✭GavMan


    Roche missed I would say half the year with sevens. That might not be too attractive for 1A/B clubs.

    At least with Rock, he knows he will probably walk in and out of the first XV. From a Rock perspective, probably haven't got talent like that queuing up to join they will be happy to have him 50-60% of the year.


  • #53
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Well the provinces and clubs are getting there. There's definitely light at the end of the tunnel imo, I think there's been a bit of a realisation on both ends that they are stronger together. But its not going to happen everywhere at the same time.

    I think the best case scenario is this creates a mutually beneficial relationship between provincial academies and clubs that allows both to grow together, rather than one at the expense of any other.

    That definitely cannot be achieved in a fully meritocratic system however. That means a price to pay in Leinster and Munster, it will cause war, but its the only sustainable solution. Despite being a product of a club who will be absolutely devastated by this, I think it's a great step forward.

    Nucifora has to put himself forward as the bad guy here. Might have to move to Sligo to escape fallout!
    I agree that there has been a realisation in some areas and that certainly wont/hasnt ever happened at same time before.
    There does have to be a price to pay in some areas to help the greater good.
    Stainalert wrote: »
    The league to this point has been completely meritocratic so Munster & Leinster clubs are exactly where they deserve to be. I can understand why the IRFU want Ulster & Connacht to be in the top flight but 2 each is totally over the top and likely driven by political reasons rather than quality of rugby.
    Possibly two clubs each for Ulster and Connacht is over the top but if Connacht were to get 2 clubs then they even more than Ulster would likely get quite a few players to move back from Dublin/Limerick to play which would help a lot the quality of rugby
    slingerz wrote: »
    the issue with the new setup is the conflict with vested interests. For example, 2 Munster teams in Premiership 1 and 2 more in Premiership 2. Cork Con and Young Munster in 1 then it will be a case of UCC and one of Shannon/Garryowen in Premiership 2 as they will want to have 2 Cork and 2 Limerick clubs in the top bracket.

    Cutting down the travel for clubs in 2A/B/C makes sense from a cost perspective alone really.

    The issue with strengthening Ulster/Connacht clubs is that players from Munster/Leinster clubs currently will be directed to these clubs for the exposure to the top level as well as them being filled with Academy/Sub Academy players. Ultimately it is structuring it so that the best players will be playing and these clubs will be the 'academy' teams for the provinces. Should see more players coming through the system rather than straight academy
    I dont see any issue with players from outside Ulster/Connacht moving to clubs there to play as there has been quite a few Galway/Connacht natives playing in Dublin for work reasons and with more work available they could move back now.
    How much does travel for divisions 2 really need to be cut? How much do you want it cut?
    Academy players from Connacht and Ulster generally are playing AIL quite a bit. Corinthians had several academy players involved through the year.


  • #54
    stellenbosch
    Registered Users Posts: 458 ✭✭stellenbosch


    GavMan wrote: »
    Roche missed I would say half the year with sevens. That might not be too attractive for 1A/B clubs.

    At least with Rock, he knows he will probably walk in and out of the first XV. From a Rock perspective, probably haven't got talent like that queuing up to join they will be happy to have him 50-60% of the year.

    As i said Mollen played 2 games out of 18 for Trinity!


  • #55
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    I can't see guys who've moved to Dublin for work going anywhere.

    This is not going to be aimed at guys playing for beers at all. Those clubs, particularly Ulster/Connacht, will need major support from the academy.


  • #56
    slingerz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,248 ✭✭✭slingerz


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    I agree that there has been a realisation in some areas and that certainly wont/hasnt ever happened at same time before.
    There does have to be a price to pay in some areas to help the greater good.

    Possibly two clubs each for Ulster and Connacht is over the top but if Connacht were to get 2 clubs then they even more than Ulster would likely get quite a few players to move back from Dublin/Limerick to play which would help a lot the quality of rugby

    I dont see any issue with players from outside Ulster/Connacht moving to clubs there to play as there has been quite a few Galway/Connacht natives playing in Dublin for work reasons and with more work available they could move back now.
    How much does travel for divisions 2 really need to be cut? How much do you want it cut?
    Academy players from Connacht and Ulster generally are playing AIL quite a bit. Corinthians had several academy players involved through the year.


    I've no issue with those players moving back but i think you would find that their current clubs would.

    Regarding travel, i know of a number of clubs in Cork who have multiple trips to the north. The sheer cost involved in organising as well as the toll it places on players personal lives is not insignificant. i think reducing this somewhat with Southern/Northern conferences would be a positive


  • #57
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    I can't see guys who've moved to Dublin for work going anywhere.

    This is not going to be aimed at guys playing for beers at all. Those clubs, particularly Ulster/Connacht, will need major support from the academy.
    The Connacht clubs do get considerable support from the professional set up/academy considering their is only 4 senior clubs in the province. Ulster did/do a draft of contracted players and academy players play quite a bit as well and generally always have especially for Queens..
    slingerz wrote: »
    I've no issue with those players moving back but i think you would find that their current clubs would.

    Regarding travel, i know of a number of clubs in Cork who have multiple trips to the north. The sheer cost involved in organising as well as the toll it places on players personal lives is not insignificant. i think reducing this somewhat with Southern/Northern conferences would be a positive
    Their current clubs may but for most part more than have depth to cope with losing some players,
    One of clubs im associated with have had multiple trips north and any changes wouldnt dramatically change things bar removing a few long trips that quite a few players do enjoy as well.
    Often the Northern clubs that travel down bring support that stay around the club after game etc that is far better than anything that neighbouring clubs/closer clubs do.


  • #58
    ArmchairQB
    Registered Users Posts: 958 ✭✭✭ArmchairQB


    In essence the Connacht & Ulster clubs have been using the system the union want to bring in and it hasn’t worked. Buccs, Galwegians have or have had more provincial players playin* AIL and in their match day squad than any other ail teams similar to the top 2 ulster teams. Leinster and Munster do not release the players a# much a# these provinces which makes you conclude that when you dilute a club with non Club players you don’t get the buy in that fosters a good squad. Leinster and Munster have never demanded players play for certain clubs it has always been the players choice not so much so in Connacht or Ulster. I know which system I would prefer and the results would back up,that preference


  • #59
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    That just ignores the reorganisation and IRFU funding that also comes with the change.


  • #60
    ArmchairQB
    Registered Users Posts: 958 ✭✭✭ArmchairQB


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    That just ignores the reorganisation and IRFU funding that also comes with the change.

    Funding? There will be little or no funding from IRFU for proposed new format would be schocked if they made any additional funding of any significance available


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  • #61
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    ArmchairQB wrote: »
    Funding? There will be little or no funding from IRFU for proposed new format would be schocked if they made any additional funding of any significance available

    OK


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