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Donald Trump is the President Mark IV (Read Mod Warning in OP)

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Comments

  • #302
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,104 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    POTUS should be in political s***e if he's trying to peddle that narrative. Sadly, for many he won't.


  • #303
    briany
    Registered Users Posts: 13,506 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Stallingrad wrote: »
    I'm beginning to wonder are witnessing the beginning of the end of American democracy. To everyone who says he has achieved nothing and is an idiot and bluffer you've been watching the ball not the player. He has pitted the country against itself, torn the Rupublican party apart and made it a party of 1, neutered the EPA, defunded Planned Parenthood, discredited the media, attacked the judiciary, re-aligned the supreme court, given the wealthy tax breaks, eroded all the markers for what we deem to be acceptable (caged kids?), exposed the myth of a robust democracy, now he's trying to take down the investigation into collusion, I don't need to go on, you all know the score.

    He's done little or nothing for the US, but done an astonishing amount in 2 years to achieve what he wants for himself.

    There is no greater danger than underestimating your opponent.

    -Lao Tzu

    A piece of age-old wisdom, and it was quite mad to watch it come true in such a spectacular fashion during the 2016 US election season.

    And what's worse is that people are still saying he's an idiot and a moron, as though if they believe it enough, Trump will simply go away. It doesn't quite work like that, though...

    If Trump is an idiot and a moron, then I shudder to think what that makes Hillary Clinton and all the Republican candidates in the 2016 primaries.

    I'm not saying he's a man who's shown an astute awareness of the workings of the political machine in which he is now running, but there's a marked difference between ignorance and stupidity. Trump can show incredible ignorance many times, but he seems to instinctively understand how to push people's buttons, and has used those powers to solidify his position with his base and divide his opponents. He's shown a worldliness and brute cunning that has taken his opponents by surprise. Whoever faces off against him in 2020 is going to have to match it while also offering a suitably appealing alternative message.


  • #304
    mcmoustache
    Registered Users Posts: 7,237 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    Taytoland wrote: »
    Was this person part of the Russian government? Did Trump order for the meeting to be held if that person was part of the Russian government? We need to see something showing this.


    To answer the second part, the email from Rob Goldstone represented the "dirt" as being provided by the Russian government with the intention of helping Trump's campaign. This only tells us that Don Jr knew. Right now, there is no proof that Trump Sr knew although there is a video of his campaign speech two days prior where he said that he'd have more information on Clinton after the following monday.
    Trump railed against Hillary Clinton to supporters after he won the New Jersey primary that same week. “I am going to give a major speech on probably Monday of next week and we’re going to be discussing all of the things that have taken place with the Clintons,” he told them. “I think you’re going to find it very informative and very, very interesting.” (He announced the Clinton speech in the video above at 7:08)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFIZ80Oqxxo


    That alone isn't proof, however.


    Regarding Veselnetskaya, I guess it depends on what you mean by "part of the Russian Government". She's not an MP or anything like that but she gives the impression that she does.
    During an interview to be broadcast Friday by NBC News, she acknowledged that she was not merely a private lawyer but a source of information for a top Kremlin official, Yuri Y. Chaika, the prosecutor general.

    “I am a lawyer, and I am an informant,” she said. “Since 2013, I have been actively communicating with the office of the Russian prosecutor general.”

    The Russian prosecutor general is Yuri Cheika. Rob Goldstone mistakenly called him the Crown Prosecutor in his email to Don Junior.


  • #305
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,472 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Apparently, Guiliani has also said that there was a meeting two days prior to the actual meeting to discuss strategy for the meeting.

    This flies in the face of what Jared said, he said he knew nothing and was simply called in.

    It also gives greater evidence of a conspiracy, since Trump Jr was directly talking about potential securing illegal information with Kushner and Manafort.

    This meeting has not been brought up before (at least as far as I can recall).


  • #306
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    jooksavage wrote: »
    notobtuse wrote: »
    Can you provide me information that Trump Jr knew beforehand that the meeting was with "Kremlin backed operatives?"


    A 30 second search would produce this pre-meeting email from Rob Goldstone to Don Jr.


    "This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part  of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump - helped along by  Aras and Emin."


    To which Don Jr replies:


    "Seems we have some time and if it's what you say I love it especially later in the summer."
    Was Rod Goldstone part of the campaign and what makes him an authority on the matter?

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



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  • #307
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,472 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    notobtuse wrote: »
    Was Rod Goldstone part of the campaign and what makes him an authority on the matter?

    Does it matter? I really don't see what you are trying to get at.

    If someone hires a hitman to kill someone and that hitman turns out to be a con artist, it is still conspiracy.

    The only important thing is whether Trump Jr thought it was real intel.

    And he has never said he didn't.

    The fact that had had the meeting at all gives that some credibility, and know Guiliani is claiming that there was actually a pre-meeting meeting to discuss strategy


  • #308
    Taytoland
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭Taytoland


    jooksavage wrote: »
    Taytoland wrote: »
    Was this person part of the Russian government?


    Why do some of you guys keep asking questions that a quick Google search would answer. The laywer, Veselnitskaya works for the Russian government, as thousands of articles like the one below attest:


    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/11/world/europe/natalia-veselnitskaya-donald-trump-jr-russian-lawyer.html
    Works for is different from being part of the Russian government.


  • #309
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    notobtuse wrote: »
    Was Rod Goldstone part of the campaign and what makes him an authority on the matter?

    Does it matter?  I really don't see what you are trying to get at.

    If someone hires a hitman to kill someone and that hitman turns out to be a con artist, it is still conspiracy.

    The only important thing is whether Trump Jr thought it was real intel.

    And he has never said he didn't.

    The fact that had had the meeting at all gives that some credibility, and know Guiliani is claiming that there was actually a pre-meeting meeting to discuss strategy
    What I’m getting at is nobody should ever be expected to act on every bit of unsolicited advice from anybody who is not an authority on the matter.

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



  • #310
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,104 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Russian operatives don't go around with a business card with it on it, in their pocket. You well know that, when posing your question.


  • #311
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,472 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    notobtuse wrote: »
    What I’m getting at is nobody should ever be expected to act on every bit of unsolicited advice from anybody who is not an authority on the matter.

    Of course not. But you are trying to claim that Trump Jr was right to meet with these people on the basis that they may, or may not have been Russia.

    even though he was told they were, and set up a meeting on that basis. If he didn't believe it then why not ask for some evidence?

    Taking himself and at least Jared and Manafort away from the campaign to have a meeting with nobodies seem highly unusual for such an experienced businessman. And know we know they had a strategy meeting prior to the meeting. Do you not think anybody even asked if this was legit?

    At this still doesn't give any answer as to why Trump, after being informed by the FBI that Russia had been trying to influence the election, would not tell the FBI of this attempt.

    In fact he didn't simply not tell them, he actively went out to try to paint the FBI as corrupt and the whole Russia thing as a conspiracy against him. All this whilst he knew that they had been contacted directly.

    So I ask you again. What is your opinion of Trump Jr trying to get illegally obtained intel from a Russian Government source?
    What is your opinion of Trump lying about what he knew about the meeting>
    What is you opinion on Trump continuing to claim a witch hunt when he knew all along that Russia was trying something.
    What is you opinion of Guiliani now telling us that Jared has lied to congress as their was a pre meeting?


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  • #312
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 12,911 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    I do wonder where the collusion narrative came from. I can't recall when it was first floated as an idea.

    But it is telling that Trump and Guiliani are very heavily stating that collusion is not a crime, but never get into conspiracy (which it is more likely to be) and campaign finance violations.

    Lithwick @ Slate.com, who is their legal writer (and worth following imo, very insightful woman, usually writes about the Supreme Court), had a piece about why Trump's on about 'collusion' - he's basically controlling the narrative harping on it, when it's not really the issue that'll get him impeached.

    https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/05/trump-has-invented-his-own-legal-language-to-distort-the-case-against-him.html


  • #313
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    notobtuse wrote: »
    What I’m getting at is nobody should ever be expected to act on every bit of unsolicited advice from anybody who is not an authority on the matter.

    Of course not.  But you are trying to claim that Trump Jr was right to meet with these people on the basis that they may, or may not have been Russia.

    even though he was told they were, and set up a meeting on that basis.  If he didn't believe it then why not ask for some evidence?

    Taking himself and at least Jared and Manafort away from the campaign to have a meeting with nobodies seem highly unusual for such an experienced businessman.  And know we know they had a strategy meeting prior to the meeting.  Do you not think anybody even asked if this was legit?  

    At this still doesn't give any answer as to why Trump, after being informed by the FBI that Russia had been trying to influence the election, would not tell the FBI of this attempt.

    In fact he didn't simply not tell them, he actively went out to try to paint the FBI as corrupt and the whole Russia thing as a conspiracy against him.  All this whilst he knew that they had been contacted directly.

    So I ask you again.  What is your opinion of Trump Jr trying to get illegally obtained intel from a Russian Government source?
    What is your opinion of Trump lying about what he knew about the meeting>
    What is you opinion on Trump continuing to claim a witch hunt when he knew all along that Russia was trying something.
    What is you opinion of Guiliani now telling us that Jared has lied to congress as their was a pre meeting?
    What illegally obtained intel?  I'm still at a loss for this.

    I believe there was a witch hunt out to get him by the Obama administration... which continues to this day. And why didn't THEN President Obama do more to stop Russia's campaign of active measures against the 2016 presidential campaign?  Shouldn't more of the blame of Russian interference be put on Obama rather than Trump?

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



  • #314
    Captain Obvious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    notobtuse wrote: »
    What illegally obtained intel? I'm still at a loss for this.

    I believe there was a witch hunt out to get him by the Obama administration... which continues to this day. And why didn't THEN President Obama do more to stop Russia's campaign of active measures against the 2016 presidential campaign? Shouldn't more of the blame of Russian interference be put on Obama rather than Trump?


    Are you aware that the Obama administration no longer exists?


  • #315
    mcmoustache
    Registered Users Posts: 7,237 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    Taytoland wrote: »
    Works for is different from being part of the Russian government.

    It is but I'm not sure what you're getting at. FSB, GRU, army, navy and police members all work for the government but are not part of the government.


  • #316
    Taytoland
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,067 ✭✭✭Taytoland


    mcmoustache wrote: »
    Taytoland wrote: »
    Works for is different from being part of the Russian government.

    It is but I'm not sure what you're getting at. FSB, GRU, army, navy and police members all work for the government but are not part of the government.
    They don't decide policy though. We need proof that Trump colluded with the Kremlin. Although we do have video of Trump telling Russia hacks to keep hacking for more information on Hillary but no one seems to mention that. Amazing moment.


  • #317
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 14,951 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    notobtuse wrote: »
    What illegally obtained intel?  I'm still at a loss for this.

    I believe there was a witch hunt out to get him by the Obama administration... which continues to this day. And why didn't THEN President Obama do more to stop Russia's campaign of active measures against the 2016 presidential campaign?  Shouldn't more of the blame of Russian interference be put on Obama rather than Trump?

    Because the GOP - McConnell specifically, threatened Blue Murder if they went public with any of the information that they had..
    Joe Biden said that Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell stopped the Obama administration from speaking out about Russian interference in the 2016 campaign by refusing to sign on to a bipartisan statement of condemnation.

    That moment, the former Democratic vice president said, made him think “the die had been cast ... this was all about the political play.”

    From here
    In early September, Johnson, Comey, and Monaco arrived on Capitol Hill in a caravan of black SUVs for a meeting with 12 key members of Congress, including the leadership of both parties. The meeting devolved into a partisan squabble.

    “The Dems were, ‘Hey, we have to tell the public,’ ” recalled one participant. But Republicans resisted, arguing that to warn the public that the election was under attack would further Russia’s aim of sapping confidence in the system.

    Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) went further, officials said, voicing skepticism that the underlying intelligence truly supported the White House’s claims.

    From here


  • #318
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    Captain Obvious wrote: »
    notobtuse wrote: »
    What illegally obtained intel?  I'm still at a loss for this.

    I believe there was a witch hunt out to get him by the Obama administration... which continues to this day. And why didn't THEN President Obama do more to stop Russia's campaign of active measures against the 2016 presidential campaign?  Shouldn't more of the blame of Russian interference be put on Obama rather than Trump?


    Are you aware that the Obama administration no longer exists?
    Yes, but some of his appointments are still part of what is considered the 'Deep State.'

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



  • #319
    Captain Obvious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    notobtuse wrote: »
    Yes, but some of his appointments are still part of what is considered the 'Deep State.'


    Which ones?


  • #320
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    notobtuse wrote: »
    Leroy42 wrote: »
    notobtuse wrote: »
    What I’m getting at is nobody should ever be expected to act on every bit of unsolicited advice from anybody who is not an authority on the matter.

    Of course not.  But you are trying to claim that Trump Jr was right to meet with these people on the basis that they may, or may not have been Russia.

    even though he was told they were, and set up a meeting on that basis.  If he didn't believe it then why not ask for some evidence?

    Taking himself and at least Jared and Manafort away from the campaign to have a meeting with nobodies seem highly unusual for such an experienced businessman.  And know we know they had a strategy meeting prior to the meeting.  Do you not think anybody even asked if this was legit?  

    At this still doesn't give any answer as to why Trump, after being informed by the FBI that Russia had been trying to influence the election, would not tell the FBI of this attempt.

    In fact he didn't simply not tell them, he actively went out to try to paint the FBI as corrupt and the whole Russia thing as a conspiracy against him.  All this whilst he knew that they had been contacted directly.

    So I ask you again.  What is your opinion of Trump Jr trying to get illegally obtained intel from a Russian Government source?
    What is your opinion of Trump lying about what he knew about the meeting>
    What is you opinion on Trump continuing to claim a witch hunt when he knew all along that Russia was trying something.
    What is you opinion of Guiliani now telling us that Jared has lied to congress as their was a pre meeting?
    What illegally obtained intel?  I'm still at a loss for this.

    I believe there was a witch hunt out to get him by the Obama administration... which continues to this day. And why didn't THEN President Obama do more to stop Russia's campaign of active measures against the 2016 presidential campaign?  Shouldn't more of the blame of Russian interference be put on Obama rather than Trump?

    On what grounds do you believe there was a witch hunt and where is your evidence for such?


  • #321
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,472 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    notobtuse wrote: »
    What illegally obtained intel?  I'm still at a loss for this.

    I believe there was a witch hunt out to get him by the Obama administration... which continues to this day. And why didn't THEN President Obama do more to stop Russia's campaign of active measures against the 2016 presidential campaign?  Shouldn't more of the blame of Russian interference be put on Obama rather than Trump?

    So no opinion on any of it then.

    Jeez, if you even try to break out of your bubble and start to question at least some of it.

    Instead we are back to conspiracies about Obama! Obama should have to answer questions, IMO, but he didn't actively take part and didn't try to cover it up.

    But I would wager that he took the view that without cast iron evidence he would be seen as trying to influence in favor of HC. That we have all this info now and you still won't even question Trumps role in it proves Obama perfectly reasonable in that assumption. Quin_Dub already posted the details of this. Another of your made up stories put to bed.

    The most damning piece if that since Trump was told about this in November 2016, he has done nothing but lie about it and claim a witch hunt, when it is clear as day, whether it ended up being useful or not, that Trump was willing to use the Russians to influence his changes of winning the election.


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  • #322
    mcmoustache
    Registered Users Posts: 7,237 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    Calina wrote: »
    On what grounds do you believe there was a witch hunt and where is your evidence for such?

    Unhinged tweets from Trump's twitter and high energy MAGA geniuses from the_Donald.


  • #323
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    Captain Obvious wrote: »
    notobtuse wrote: »
    Yes, but some of his appointments are still part of what is considered the 'Deep State.'


    Which ones?
    Robert Moosey, Greg Friel, Alberto Ruisanchez and Rebecca Bondto just to name a few. They were sneakily slotted by the Obama administration into permanent deputy assistant attorney general roles that are normally reserved for political appointees.  Still there and still undermining the outcome of the 2016 election.  Plus, John Brennan, James Comey, Andy McCabe and other Obama-era officials still have security clearances and there are concerns by members of the Senate that some have been using classified information for personal gain and to leak to the press.

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



  • #324
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,472 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    So no actual evidence then! Just some theories. Why do you not have the same level of critical thinking when it comes to Trump?

    Sneakily? On what basis?

    They are permanent, as in they can never be fired? Really? So like a job for life? So Trump can fire the head of the FBI, the acting AG, but he can do nothing about these guys?

    How are they undermining the 2016 election?

    Concerns? There are some concerns? Well then that proves it then. I mean we have Trump Jr admitting to meeting trying to intel, lying about, Trump lying about it and now we hear from Giuliani that there was a previous strategy meeting and Trump was probably on a conference call in the meeting.

    But if people have concerns, well then, look no further.


  • #325
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    Calina wrote: »
    notobtuse wrote: »
    Leroy42 wrote: »
    notobtuse wrote: »
    What I’m getting at is nobody should ever be expected to act on every bit of unsolicited advice from anybody who is not an authority on the matter.

    Of course not.  But you are trying to claim that Trump Jr was right to meet with these people on the basis that they may, or may not have been Russia.

    even though he was told they were, and set up a meeting on that basis.  If he didn't believe it then why not ask for some evidence?

    Taking himself and at least Jared and Manafort away from the campaign to have a meeting with nobodies seem highly unusual for such an experienced businessman.  And know we know they had a strategy meeting prior to the meeting.  Do you not think anybody even asked if this was legit?  

    At this still doesn't give any answer as to why Trump, after being informed by the FBI that Russia had been trying to influence the election, would not tell the FBI of this attempt.

    In fact he didn't simply not tell them, he actively went out to try to paint the FBI as corrupt and the whole Russia thing as a conspiracy against him.  All this whilst he knew that they had been contacted directly.

    So I ask you again.  What is your opinion of Trump Jr trying to get illegally obtained intel from a Russian Government source?
    What is your opinion of Trump lying about what he knew about the meeting>
    What is you opinion on Trump continuing to claim a witch hunt when he knew all along that Russia was trying something.
    What is you opinion of Guiliani now telling us that Jared has lied to congress as their was a pre meeting?
    What illegally obtained intel?  I'm still at a loss for this.

    I believe there was a witch hunt out to get him by the Obama administration... which continues to this day. And why didn't THEN President Obama do more to stop Russia's campaign of active measures against the 2016 presidential campaign?  Shouldn't more of the blame of Russian interference be put on Obama rather than Trump?

    On what grounds do you believe there was a witch hunt and where is your evidence for such?
    I’ve noted several times that my opinion on the matter to be a witch-hunt because I believe this Mueller investigation all stems from the FISA applications and subsequent spying by Obama's FBI that relied heavily on the salacious and unverified anti-Trump dossier paid for by Hillary Clinton and the DNC.

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



  • #326
    Calina
    Registered Users Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    notobtuse wrote: »
    Calina wrote: »
    notobtuse wrote: »
    Leroy42 wrote: »
    notobtuse wrote: »
    What I’m getting at is nobody should ever be expected to act on every bit of unsolicited advice from anybody who is not an authority on the matter.

    Of course not.  But you are trying to claim that Trump Jr was right to meet with these people on the basis that they may, or may not have been Russia.

    even though he was told they were, and set up a meeting on that basis.  If he didn't believe it then why not ask for some evidence?

    Taking himself and at least Jared and Manafort away from the campaign to have a meeting with nobodies seem highly unusual for such an experienced businessman.  And know we know they had a strategy meeting prior to the meeting.  Do you not think anybody even asked if this was legit?  

    At this still doesn't give any answer as to why Trump, after being informed by the FBI that Russia had been trying to influence the election, would not tell the FBI of this attempt.

    In fact he didn't simply not tell them, he actively went out to try to paint the FBI as corrupt and the whole Russia thing as a conspiracy against him.  All this whilst he knew that they had been contacted directly.

    So I ask you again.  What is your opinion of Trump Jr trying to get illegally obtained intel from a Russian Government source?
    What is your opinion of Trump lying about what he knew about the meeting>
    What is you opinion on Trump continuing to claim a witch hunt when he knew all along that Russia was trying something.
    What is you opinion of Guiliani now telling us that Jared has lied to congress as their was a pre meeting?
    What illegally obtained intel?  I'm still at a loss for this.

    I believe there was a witch hunt out to get him by the Obama administration... which continues to this day. And why didn't THEN President Obama do more to stop Russia's campaign of active measures against the 2016 presidential campaign?  Shouldn't more of the blame of Russian interference be put on Obama rather than Trump?

    On what grounds do you believe there was a witch hunt and where is your evidence for such?
    I’ve noted several times that my opinion on the matter to be a witch-hunt because I believe this Mueller investigation all stems from the FISA applications and subsequent spying by Obama's FBI that relied heavily on the salacious and unverified anti-Trump dossier paid for by Hillary Clinton and the DNC.

    Everything is you believe but you have absolutely no evidence for these beliefs and yet reject far stronger evidence against Trump.


  • #327
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    notobtuse wrote: »
    What illegally obtained intel?  I'm still at a loss for this.

    I believe there was a witch hunt out to get him by the Obama administration... which continues to this day. And why didn't THEN President Obama do more to stop Russia's campaign of active measures against the 2016 presidential campaign?  Shouldn't more of the blame of Russian interference be put on Obama rather than Trump?

    So no opinion on  any of it then.

    Jeez, if you even try to break out of your bubble and start to question at least some of it.

    Instead we are back to conspiracies about Obama!  Obama should have to answer questions, IMO, but he didn't actively take part and didn't try to cover it up.

    But I would wager that he took the view that without cast iron evidence he would be seen as trying to influence in favor of HC.  That we have all this info now and you still won't even question Trumps role in it proves Obama perfectly reasonable in that assumption.  Quin_Dub already posted the details of this. Another of your made up stories put to bed.

    The most damning piece if that since Trump was told about this in November 2016, he has done nothing but lie about it and claim a witch hunt, when it is clear as day, whether it ended up being useful or not, that Trump was willing to use the Russians to influence his changes of winning the election.
    Here’s something to consider.  If we are under the contention that it would have been illegal for Trump Jr to utilize any information that would have been illegally obtained by the Russians, then shouldn’t EVERY head of every media source here in the US be put in jail for printing and reporting on the hacked emails of Podesta and the DNC by the Russians? It seems to me many have a tendency to ignore possible improprieties by anyone who doesn’t have the last name of Trump.

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



  • #328
    everlast75
    Registered Users Posts: 18,954 ✭✭✭✭everlast75


    Rudy just has his own version of "wouldn't" instead of "would".

    Jesus, this is embarrassing

    https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1023975302765178881?s=19


  • #329
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    Calina wrote: »
    notobtuse wrote: »
    Calina wrote: »
    notobtuse wrote: »
    Leroy42 wrote: »
    notobtuse wrote: »
    What I’m getting at is nobody should ever be expected to act on every bit of unsolicited advice from anybody who is not an authority on the matter.

    Of course not.  But you are trying to claim that Trump Jr was right to meet with these people on the basis that they may, or may not have been Russia.

    even though he was told they were, and set up a meeting on that basis.  If he didn't believe it then why not ask for some evidence?

    Taking himself and at least Jared and Manafort away from the campaign to have a meeting with nobodies seem highly unusual for such an experienced businessman.  And know we know they had a strategy meeting prior to the meeting.  Do you not think anybody even asked if this was legit?  

    At this still doesn't give any answer as to why Trump, after being informed by the FBI that Russia had been trying to influence the election, would not tell the FBI of this attempt.

    In fact he didn't simply not tell them, he actively went out to try to paint the FBI as corrupt and the whole Russia thing as a conspiracy against him.  All this whilst he knew that they had been contacted directly.

    So I ask you again.  What is your opinion of Trump Jr trying to get illegally obtained intel from a Russian Government source?
    What is your opinion of Trump lying about what he knew about the meeting>
    What is you opinion on Trump continuing to claim a witch hunt when he knew all along that Russia was trying something.
    What is you opinion of Guiliani now telling us that Jared has lied to congress as their was a pre meeting?
    What illegally obtained intel?  I'm still at a loss for this.

    I believe there was a witch hunt out to get him by the Obama administration... which continues to this day. And why didn't THEN President Obama do more to stop Russia's campaign of active measures against the 2016 presidential campaign?  Shouldn't more of the blame of Russian interference be put on Obama rather than Trump?

    On what grounds do you believe there was a witch hunt and where is your evidence for such?
    I’ve noted several times that my opinion on the matter to be a witch-hunt because I believe this Mueller investigation all stems from the FISA applications and subsequent spying by Obama's FBI that relied heavily on the salacious and unverified anti-Trump dossier paid for by Hillary Clinton and the DNC.

    Everything is you believe but you have absolutely no evidence for these beliefs and yet reject far stronger evidence against Trump.


    What far stronger evidence against Trump?  (And darned tootin’ I’m going to note everything as ‘In My Opinion’, ‘I Believe’ or ‘I think.’  I don’t want there to be any question that what I post is my opinion, even though based on highly reliable sources and I link them whenever asked, and not stated as fact.)

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



  • #330
    Captain Obvious
    Registered Users Posts: 4,165 ✭✭✭Captain Obvious


    notobtuse wrote: »
    I’ve noted several times that my opinion on the matter to be a witch-hunt because I believe this Mueller investigation all stems from the FISA applications and subsequent spying by Obama's FBI that relied heavily on the salacious and unverified anti-Trump dossier paid for by Hillary Clinton and the DNC.


    That wouldn't make it a witch hunt though. A witch hunt is a campaign to punish people who have done no wrong. Mueller's investigation is into Russian interference in the election. There's ample evidence, indictments and guilty pleas that there was Russian interference in the investigation. There's ample evidence that people close to Trump have done wrong. You're arguing that it is a witch hunt because it was started based on incorrect grounds but are you actually challenging the findings of the investigation so far?



    And can you explain what the deep state actually is? You've named some people with limited influence. What exactly is the deep state supposed to be doing?


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  • #331
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    So no actual evidence then!  Just some theories.  Why do you not have the same level of critical thinking when it comes to Trump?

    Sneakily?  On what basis?

    They are permanent, as in they can never be fired? Really?  So like a job for life?  So Trump can fire the head of the FBI, the acting AG, but he can do nothing about these guys?

    How are they undermining the 2016 election?

    Concerns?  There are some concerns?  Well then that proves it then.  I mean we have Trump Jr admitting to meeting trying to intel, lying about, Trump lying about it and now we hear from Giuliani that there was a previous strategy meeting and Trump was probably on a conference call in the meeting.

    But if people have concerns, well then, look no further.
    This is an opinion piece... but just about all our reporting here in the US seemingly are now opinion pieces (whether they admit it or not, IMO) with an agenda rather than journalistic reporting. It lays out some of what you are asking for.

    http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/373051-obama-holdovers-at-the-justice-department-still-run-the-show

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



This discussion has been closed.
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