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NEW 2018 Assistant Principal Officer Competition

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    #62
    JAPhys
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭JAPhys


    Hi all,

    This is my first post but I have been following the 2016 Assistant Principal Officer Competition thread for some time and found it very useful. Some of you seem to have a great knowledge of the whole process and I am hoping some of my questions might have straight forward simple answers for some of you. I am working in the private sector so please forgive any lack of procedural knowledge I may have- you don't know what you don't know! I hope it is ok to start with 2 questions-

    1) Can anyone provide some advice of how to gauge selection of regions on the application? Is there a way of finding out what the establishment is for AP roles in particular departments prior to application?

    2) It would seem to me that the order of the selection process has changed from the last competition in so far as the interview would seem to now come before the work sample test. Does that seem correct to the rest of you in the know?

    TIA


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    #63
    llcolj
    Registered Users Posts: 31 ✭llcolj


    JAPhys wrote: »
    Hi all,

    This is my first post but I have been following the 2016 Assistant Principal Officer Competition thread for some time and found it very useful. Some of you seem to have a great knowledge of the whole process and I am hoping some of my questions might have straight forward simple answers for some of you. I am working in the private sector so please forgive any lack of procedural knowledge I may have- you don't know what you don't know! I hope it is ok to start with 2 questions-

    1) Can anyone provide some advice of how to gauge selection of regions on the application? Is there a way of finding out what the establishment is for AP roles in particular departments prior to application?

    2) It would seem to me that the order of the selection process has changed from the last competition in so far as the interview would seem to now come before the work sample test. Does that seem correct to the rest of you in the know?

    TIA

    1. The civil service mobility map might be helpful in deciding on which region to choose:

    https://dper.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=83eb12efc9c7478a982d39a89f759663

    But I imagine most AP vacancies will be based in Dublin.

    Publicjobs has some info on the work of APs but it will vary from Dept to Dept.



    2. In previous competitions Stage 2 was assessment tests done again in Abbey Street along with an eTray exercise. But it seems that they have skipped this stage and they are shortlisting to whittle the numbers down. Who knows?


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    #64
    Skip13
    Registered Users Posts: 86 ✭✭Skip13


    llcolj wrote: »
    1. The civil service mobility map might be helpful in deciding on which region to choose:

    https://dper.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=83eb12efc9c7478a982d39a89f759663

    But I imagine most AP vacancies will be based in Dublin.

    Publicjobs has some info on the work of APs but it will vary from Dept to Dept.



    2. In previous competitions Stage 2 was assessment tests done again in Abbey Street along with an eTray exercise. But it seems that they have skipped this stage and they are shortlisting to whittle the numbers down. Who knows?

    I think your both correct before the supervised test they rank people by qualifications & experience and your oom might change but we have to get through stage 1.


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    #65
    JAPhys
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭JAPhys


    Can anyone shed any light on why the crazy system of picking 2 locations?

    Lets say candidate A is from Kerry. They made a wise decision to put Dublin and Kildare in their 2 choices as they believe they are the most probable locations there will be positions (They would love to remain in Kerry but they don't like the odds of it having a position). They actually top the selection process, are placed first on the panel, and end up working in Dublin.

    Candidate B is from Dublin but places cuch lower on the panel. They want to remain in Dublin so also put Dublin and Kildare as their choices. However due to all the country candidates who hedged their bets (and didn't want to be placed in Dublin) they are left with no option other than to head to Kerry.

    Two candidates end up 4 hours away from where they wanted, completely without necessity.

    Is there an incredibly well thought out reason behind the scenes for this that has gone completely over my head because it seems like a ridiculous system to me- even without mentioning the notion of having no input as to what appointment/department etc you may actually like


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    #66
    WAW
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭WAW


    Does anybody know how many positions for AP (currently serving) are in Clare, Limerick, Galway areas? I need to pick two of these and trying to decide between Limerick and Galway. Are there even more than a handful in Clare?

    What is that CS mobility app exactly?


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    #67
    llcolj
    Registered Users Posts: 31 ✭llcolj


    What is that CS mobility app exactly?[/quote]

    The CS mobility scheme allows you to transfer from one CS office to another. It was only just introduced for CO and EO grades. It is envisaged that APs will be added to it eventually once they work out the problems.


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    #68
    ThumbTaxed
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭ThumbTaxed


    llcolj wrote: »
    What is that CS mobility app exactly?

    The CS mobility scheme allows you to transfer from one CS office to another. It was only just introduced for CO and EO grades. It is envisaged that APs will be added to it eventually once they work out the problems.[/quote]

    Expect a lot of outward movement from places like Revenue to other places as I believe you are actually expected to have some skills in the former. Won't change unless they reintroduce a pay differential


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    #69
    WAW
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭WAW


    ThumbTaxed wrote: »
    The CS mobility scheme allows you to transfer from one CS office to another. It was only just introduced for CO and EO grades. It is envisaged that APs will be added to it eventually once they work out the problems.

    Expect a lot of outward movement from places like Revenue to other places as I believe you are actually expected to have some skills in the former. Won't change unless they reintroduce a pay differential[/QUOTE]

    Thanks for that. Is it best to have had experience in Revenue instead of say AGS for the AP competition then?


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    #70
    Tauriel
    Registered Users Posts: 30,340 ✭✭✭✭Tauriel


    Do you have to choose two locations or can you just put down the one?


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    #71
    Ravelleman
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 3,635 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ravelleman


    WAW wrote: »
    Thanks for that. Is it best to have had experience in Revenue instead of say AGS for the AP competition then?

    Given the scale of reform (project/change management) underway in AGS, it would strike me as a great area to have experience in.


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    #72
    Aitor
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭Aitor


    JAPhys wrote: »
    Can anyone shed any light on why the crazy system of picking 2 locations?

    Lets say candidate A is from Kerry. They made a wise decision to put Dublin and Kildare in their 2 choices as they believe they are the most probable locations there will be positions (They would love to remain in Kerry but they don't like the odds of it having a position). They actually top the selection process, are placed first on the panel, and end up working in Dublin.

    Candidate B is from Dublin but places cuch lower on the panel. They want to remain in Dublin so also put Dublin and Kildare as their choices. However due to all the country candidates who hedged their bets (and didn't want to be placed in Dublin) they are left with no option other than to head to Kerry.

    Two candidates end up 4 hours away from where they wanted, completely without necessity.

    Is there an incredibly well thought out reason behind the scenes for this that has gone completely over my head because it seems like a ridiculous system to me- even without mentioning the notion of having no input as to what appointment/department etc you may actually like

    It is a silly system, but I’m pretty certain that in the scenario you outlined above, the Dublin person (assuming they picked Dublin or Kildare) would only be assigned there. They’d have to wait until a place became vacant. They couldn’t be sent to Kerry.

    I actually came into the CS on an AP panel in the last competition, so happy to answer any questions I can about the experience of an external candidate.


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    #73
    WAW
    Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭WAW


    Ravelleman wrote: »
    Given the scale of reform (project/change management) underway in AGS, it would strike me as a great area to have experience in.

    Thanks. That's where I'm headed any day now AGS so was getting a bit worried not to have had Revenue experience for applying for APO competition!


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    #74
    JAPhys
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭JAPhys


    Aitor wrote: »
    It is a silly system, but I’m pretty certain that in the scenario you outlined above, the Dublin person (assuming they picked Dublin or Kildare) would only be assigned there. They’d have to wait until a place became vacant. They couldn’t be sent to Kerry.

    I actually came into the CS on an AP panel in the last competition, so happy to answer any questions I can about the experience of an external candidate.

    If both Dublin and Kildare were filled and they were next on the panel perhaps?

    Regardless it is even more ridiculous that someone below them would get a position and they wouldn't, simply because in the Russian roulette system they selected what they wanted rather than what was most probable and perhaps unsuitable.

    Really appreciate the offer of advice- I suppose my only really pressing concern is how to learn the exact ins and outs of the job on a day to day basis? I appreciate it will vary greatly from each department/role to the next, but what would a typical day actually involve in the real world? Is there much actual management of people involved or is the position more about seniority and having team members to call upon for input or delegation of tasks?

    TIA :)


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    #75
    duffman13
    Registered Users Posts: 8,946 ✭✭✭duffman13


    Aitor wrote: »
    It is a silly system, but I’m pretty certain that in the scenario you outlined above, the Dublin person (assuming they picked Dublin or Kildare) would only be assigned there. They’d have to wait until a place became vacant. They couldn’t be sent to Kerry.

    I actually came into the CS on an AP panel in the last competition, so happy to answer any questions I can about the experience of an external candidate.

    What level of experience did you have in the private sector? I've tonnes of management experience but would likely lack in the policy aspects of it which is what's holding me back somewhat. I'm into current affairs and have some health policy experience from the user end of the spectrum.

    How do you find the difference since moving?


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    #76
    Aitor
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭Aitor


    JAPhys wrote: »
    If both Dublin and Kildare were filled and they were next on the panel perhaps?

    Regardless it is even more ridiculous that someone below them would get a position and they wouldn't, simply because in the Russian roulette system they selected what they wanted rather than what was most probable and perhaps unsuitable.

    Really appreciate the offer of advice- I suppose my only really pressing concern is how to learn the exact ins and outs of the job on a day to day basis? I appreciate it will vary greatly from each department/role to the next, but what would a typical day actually involve in the real world? Is there much actual management of people involved or is the position more about seniority and having team members to call upon for input or delegation of tasks?

    TIA :)

    I had zero experience in the work of my Department, but to be honest that hasn’t proven to be a massive issue. HEOs tend to have a lot of domain knowledge, but they want someone to make a call based on the information available, and stand over that. I also feel that the CS management often overlooks the development of EOs and HEOs - if you ask them where they want to go in life and help them move towards that goal, it’ll be appreciated.


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    #77
    Aitor
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭Aitor


    duffman13 wrote: »
    What level of experience did you have in the private sector? I've tonnes of management experience but would likely lack in the policy aspects of it which is what's holding me back somewhat. I'm into current affairs and have some health policy experience from the user end of the spectrum.

    How do you find the difference since moving?

    I’d managed teams of up to 15 people, mainly in SMEs. I’d also worked in a semi-state, so the policy/political side wasn’t unknown to me. To be honest, I think expressing an interest in a given area, showing you’ve done some research, and talking knowledgeably would suffice for the interview.

    The CS is a good employer, and the team I’m on is great. Yes, it is more bureaucratic than the private sector, and yes it can be difficult to move quickly. But the work matters, and isn’t just about the bottom line.

    My one gripe is how needlessly difficult it is to move into a Department you’re interested in.


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    #78
    never_mind
    Registered Users Posts: 915 ✭✭✭never_mind


    Aitor wrote: »
    I’d managed teams of up to 15 people, mainly in SMEs. I’d also worked in a semi-state, so the policy/political side wasn’t unknown to me. To be honest, I think expressing an interest in a given area, showing you’ve done some research, and talking knowledgeably would suffice for the interview.

    The CS is a good employer, and the team I’m on is great. Yes, it is more bureaucratic than the private sector, and yes it can be difficult to move quickly. But the work matters, and isn’t just about the bottom line.

    My one gripe is how needlessly difficult it is to move into a Department you’re interested in.

    I have been working in education (third level) for ten years in various teaching/admin roles. I am going to do the Irish stream as well as I speak it. I wouldn't have managed people before but am a current AO - do you think I would have zero chance?


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    #79
    gerrybbadd
    Registered Users Posts: 10,301 ✭✭✭✭gerrybbadd


    never_mind wrote: »
    I have been working in education (third level) for ten years in various teaching/admin roles. I am going to do the Irish stream as well as I speak it. I wouldn't have managed people before but am a current AO - do you think I would have zero chance?

    You wouldn't have managed staff perhaps, but you'll have managed the kids you taught.

    Think of management like a cross. You manage up (your own managers), across both sides (your peers of equal standing), and below (your staff). But not only this, you may also manage the public, various computer systems, other stakeholders etc.


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    #80
    Aitor
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭Aitor


    gerrybbadd wrote: »
    You wouldn't have managed staff perhaps, but you'll have managed the kids you taught.

    Think of management like a cross. You manage up (your own managers), across both sides (your peers of equal standing), and below (your staff). But not only this, you may also manage the public, various computer systems, other stakeholders etc.

    That’s spot on. I think management in the Civil Service is a lot more consensus-based than people realise. Experience in teaching would definitely be useful- for training in new hires for example, or understanding why some people are struggling with certain parts of the job.


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    #81
    JAPhys
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭JAPhys


    Aitor wrote: »
    That’s spot on. I think management in the Civil Service is a lot more consensus-based than people realise. Experience in teaching would definitely be useful- for training in new hires for example, or understanding why some people are struggling with certain parts of the job.

    Aitor, in your experience, do you think it would be reasonable to assume that the first new APs from this new panel will not be placed this side of Christmas?


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    #82
    never_mind
    Registered Users Posts: 915 ✭✭✭never_mind


    gerrybbadd wrote: »
    You wouldn't have managed staff perhaps, but you'll have managed the kids you taught.

    Think of management like a cross. You manage up (your own managers), across both sides (your peers of equal standing), and below (your staff). But not only this, you may also manage the public, various computer systems, other stakeholders etc.

    This is gold thank!!


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    #83
    Aitor
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭Aitor


    JAPhys wrote: »
    Aitor, in your experience, do you think it would be reasonable to assume that the first new APs from this new panel will not be placed this side of Christmas?

    They might be, but pessimism is always the safer option!

    Having said that, bear in mind that if you don’t immediately get called for interview after the altitude tests, you might still be interviewed in the coming months, so long as you’ve hit the minimum qualifying scores.


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    #84
    Cushtie
    Registered Users Posts: 699 ✭✭✭Cushtie


    I'm thinking of applying for this. From private sector. I take it the majority of the positions will be filled by current CS employees being promoted.

    I will have a good read of the booklet etc over weekend and see. I currently manage a small dept in a company with approx 60 employees. Would this be considered too small fry for the CS AP position?

    (Hopefully the posters with more experience of these competitions won't be head wrecked with all the questions!!!)


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    #85
    tea and coffee
    Registered Users Posts: 1,823 ✭✭✭tea and coffee


    That would be fine. It's more about showing competencies in leading staff and say, managing underperformance etc.
    In some departments, managers might only have 1 or 2 direct reports. It's relatively large depts like Revenue that would have large teams.


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    #86
    yop
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 16,722 Mod ✭✭✭✭yop


    I did the PO one before, took ages to fill out, did the apt tests and lost out on it. I've 23 yrs experience with around 10 yrs in various team lead/manager & engineer/it manager roles so I should be ok experience wise but the answer to the tests were wooly and I failed on them.
    So having a load of experience isn't worth much to me if I can't get through the tests and the tests are more weighted which is odd.


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    #87
    JAPhys
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭JAPhys


    yop wrote: »
    I did the PO one before, took ages to fill out, did the apt tests and lost out on it. I've 23 yrs experience with around 10 yrs in various team lead/manager & engineer/it manager roles so I should be ok experience wise but the answer to the tests were wooly and I failed on them.
    So having a load of experience isn't worth much to me if I can't get through the tests and the tests are more weighted which is odd.

    It certainly seems that way from reading the thread about the last AP competition. The posters on there from the CS speculated that if you were successful in the AP competition you should just apply straight away from the next PO competition because its almost the same selection criteria.


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    #88
    Crunchymomma
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭Crunchymomma


    Is a degree a requirement? I hsve a management background from the private sector but no degree. My reading of the requirements is that it would be an advantage but is not necessarily required


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    #89
    Aitor
    Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭Aitor


    Crunchymomma wrote: »
    Is a degree a requirement? I hsve a management background from the private sector but no degree. My reading of the requirements is that it would be an advantage but is not necessarily required

    No, I don’t think so. I certainly know of APs who’ve progressed internally with no degree, but I’m not 100% certain about external candidates.


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    #90
    Crunchymomma
    Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭Crunchymomma


    Aitor wrote: »
    No, I don’t think so. I certainly know of APs who’ve progressed internally with no degree, but I’m not 100% certain about external candidates.

    Thanks, I am currently in the CS but short on the two years so will be open only. Might ring pas to clarify next wddky


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    #91
    ThumbTaxed
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭ThumbTaxed


    This thread seems to be more about people bigging themselves up merely for confidence boosts from other posters than the application.

    Wow you have 10 years experience. Wow you have managed a small team. Wow you have a degree.

    Fill in the application and you can save that rubbish for the interview


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