Devil May Cry 5

Robert ninja · 21-09-2018 3:26pm

bugs wrote: »

but for DMC only, they can literally bleed me dry if it plays well.

I know what ya mean. I felt that way for Tekken 7 so I bought deluxe edition even though I had big problems with it it... but only because I managed to actually get it for a reasonable price and because Tekken's my main thing. I got deluxe edition on launch for €58 while it's standard price was €70 I think. So unless DMC has draconian DRM I'll probably pick deluxe edition up if it gets listed anywhere for standard price.

one armed dwarf · 22-09-2018 11:49am

Some very odd takes here with the Trish jaw stuff

This gameplay showcase of Dante came out last night, looks like the first proper successor to DMC3

dead link

Somehow IGN managed to find someone who's actually really good at DMC and send him over to Tokyo to rip **** up as Dante. Unfortunately the video is 30fps so its not the best showcase of the combat's smoothness but you can infer well enough how good it probably feels.

Royal Guard is my favourite DMC3 style, it looks like they've made the windows wider and opened the style up to more players here which is good. You aren't as brutally punished for whiffing a guard.

EDIT
The IGN link is taken down for some reason, maybe uploaded too soon.

Other channels are taking the IGN video and uploading it theirselves so this link here will probably die soon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02kkcpPZ7_0

Official capcom gameplay

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVjlawqSBl0

Odd situation when the IGN reporter produces better DMC footage than Capcom themselves

Penn · 22-09-2018 12:23pm

Gunslinger looks to have been buffed a bit too which is good. Never got into using Royal Guard. I know how powerful it can be but always just defaulted to Sword master or Trickster, as more forgiving and more fun.

one armed dwarf · 22-09-2018 12:26pm

RG is my favourite cause it makes the Vergil fights feel like a fighting game full of blocks and counters. I didn't enjoy it in DMC4 tho, felt less effective. All the styles in DMC4 felt a bit rubbish tbh.

This looks cool, it def looks to me like the execution of a perfect block is easier here and these block animations are sweet

Icyseanfitz · 23-09-2018 2:02am

god damn it.

Penn · 23-09-2018 11:07am

So long as its balanced right, I don't see the issue. At least it seems like there's only one type of currency in the game (red orbs) rather than two like in DMC4 (proud souls iirc), and it makes little difference considering in previous games you could just replay earlier levels repeatedly to farm orbs/items. When I was replaying DMC3 in the HD collection a few months ago, I replayed Mission 2 (enemies and one boss just in one area, only took 2-3mins each time) a good few times to farm orbs and level up Trickster as I was having trouble somewhere else. This just means you can buy orbs rather than farming them.

I'll probably be springing for the deluxe edition anyway which I think means you get some free orbs, but after that I'll likely not buy any. But it doesn't seem like it's going to have a negative effect on playing the game, so long as it's balanced equivalent to have the previous games were,which they're saying it will be.

Icyseanfitz · 23-09-2018 11:42am

It's all about how balanced it is

one armed dwarf · 23-09-2018 7:03pm

Honestly the games have always had a grind component but the amount of time it takes to learn how to use the things you unlock versus actually getting them is always way more.

No point in paying real cash to unlock the big level 3 gunslinger combos or all of Nero's exceed attacks if you aren't even able to implement the basics yet.

MTX aren't 'good' but they were already in in DMC4SE and had no impact.

Icyseanfitz · 23-09-2018 7:10pm

doesnt mean they wont in this though, they could ramp that grind all the way up. I think sterling put it well tbh, if a developer puts micro transactions in to skip the meat of the game they are in essence saying their game is s**t

ancapailldorcha · 23-09-2018 7:38pm

And I was getting so excited. Shame.

one armed dwarf · 23-09-2018 10:21pm

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

doesnt mean they wont in this though, they could ramp that grind all the way up. I think sterling put it well tbh, if a developer puts micro transactions in to skip the meat of the game they are in essence saying their game is s**t

The meat of the game isn't skill acquisition though.

Like you can't trivialise and steamroll a boss fight because you have unlocked a powerful move cause most of the powerful moves in Devil May Cry are difficult to use.* And I think this is where Jim gets it wrong.

It's not like something like BloodBorne where you can +10 a sword hammer and crush a boss. The person who buys the mtx hoping for an advantage is in for a shock I think unless it's just health upgrades they are buying.

Like the stuff that makes mince of bosses is just knowing how to use the simple stuff, not pulling off big level 3 swordmaster moves (which don't even do much damage)

But it is interesting to see how much this has dominated the DMC5 press stuff today. This is maybe the most active this thread has been since the announcement and other places can't stop talking about it.

*eg, most powerful move in DMC3 is probably Royal Guard's just release which is very difficult to use. Or real impact with beowulf which has massive windup and a tiny hitbox

Icyseanfitz · 23-09-2018 11:36pm

I haven't played DMC in a fair bit and was never a master of it, but any game that does this nickel and dime crap in a full price release just instantly pisses me off, particularly annoying as I was so excited to see Dante (proper version) back.

Release a great game and then do dlc for it. Does horizon, god of war, Spiderman etc have these microtransactions? No and they don't need them!

Penn · 24-09-2018 10:03am

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

I haven't played DMC in a fair bit and was never a master of it, but any game that does this nickel and dime crap in a full price release just instantly pisses me off, particularly annoying as I was so excited to see Dante (proper version) back.

Release a great game and then do dlc for it. Does horizon, god of war, Spiderman etc have these microtransactions? No and they don't need them!

Well in fairness, of the three games you mentioned there, they were all PS exclusives, which means Sony would have helped fund the games. They do this so the games act as console sellers. As such, there's less onus on the developers to make a profit because even at a loss, Sony could be happy enough with the returns seen on a bump in console sales.

I think Capcom took some big enough hits over the last while with Marvel V Capcom: Infinite and Street Fighter V. MVC:I in particular sold a lot worse than expected.

I'd prefer DLC missions or something instead of microtransactions, but again I think so long as the game is balanced as it was in previous games (ie orb to item/skill prices ratio) and it doesn't affect whatever multiplayer modes they seem to be adding, I don't like the idea of mtxs, but I wouldn't oppose these either.

one armed dwarf · 25-09-2018 1:24am

Tbh, I get hung up on the language of microtransactions, DLC and premium 'cheats'.

The DMC5 producer was taking questions on one of the DMC discords, he has said that the purchasing model is the same as DMC4.

Now maybe the 5 economy is a bit different, sure.

But this is what the DMC4 storefront looks like

The Blue Orbs at the top I'd class as being MTX (micros), but there's no grind involved anyway as blue orbs are mostly rewards for secret missions and you find them by exploring nooks and crannies. You get a handful in the shop and they are usually quite cheap.

The other items on here, the Super Dante costumes, "Unlock Everything" and the Proud Souls are cheats

Proud Souls are used to buy skills. If you buy that DLC you will be able to buy all the skills available for Nero at mission 1. When you get to Dante you will definitely be able to buy all his skills

So it doesnt really feel like a MT to me, it just feels like a cheat. A cheat to skip the skill tree entirely.

DMC4's economy was just fine, but I can't imagine a situation where the DMC5 skill economy is so feckin wrecked that you have to pop into PSN to skip it entirely.

It's like the point of these games from a first player perspective, to get funnelled through the skill tree and pick up these skills and learn how to implement them.

If you skip that altogether by buying them all or you can barely purchase anything cause the progression is so banjaxed then there's no chance of having a smooth onboarding process with this game.

It's less nickel and dime and more 'pay us to bypass our fcked game'.

Maybe that could happen, but I reckon just by precedent it will not.

So like ultimately I can't see the situation where DMC5 is a nickel and dime game cause the balance of 4 was just fine. The DMC devs also did Dragon's Dogma which had MTX and I've never really heard any balance problems with that one either

J. Marston · 25-09-2018 1:35am

Seeing a costume pack there makes me appreciate another thing from Spiderman. You get 25 skins in the game to choose from with none as DLC. They probably could've gone the 0.99c/€1.99 per skin and made loads at the expense of justifiable criticism.

Penn · 25-09-2018 9:22am

one armed dwarf wrote: »

Tbh, I get hung up on the language of microtransactions, DLC and premium 'cheats'.

The DMC5 producer was taking questions on one of the DMC discords, he has said that the purchasing model is the same as DMC4.

Now maybe the 5 economy is a bit different, sure.

But this is what the DMC4 storefront looks like

The Blue Orbs at the top I'd class as being MTX (micros), but there's no grind involved anyway as blue orbs are mostly rewards for secret missions and you find them by exploring nooks and crannies. You get a handful in the shop and they are usually quite cheap.

The other items on here, the Super Dante costumes, "Unlock Everything" and the Proud Souls are cheats

Proud Souls are used to buy skills. If you buy that DLC you will be able to buy all the skills available for Nero at mission 1. When you get to Dante you will definitely be able to buy all his skills

So it doesnt really feel like a MT to me, it just feels like a cheat. A cheat to skip the skill tree entirely.

DMC4's economy was just fine, but I can't imagine a situation where the DMC5 skill economy is so feckin wrecked that you have to pop into PSN to skip it entirely.

It's like the point of these games from a first player perspective, to get funnelled through the skill tree and pick up these skills and learn how to implement them.

If you skip that altogether by buying them all or you can barely purchase anything cause the progression is so banjaxed then there's no chance of having a smooth onboarding process with this game.

It's less nickel and dime and more 'pay us to bypass our fcked game'.

Maybe that could happen, but I reckon just by precedent it will not.

So like ultimately I can't see the situation where DMC5 is a nickel and dime game cause the balance of 4 was just fine. The DMC devs also did Dragon's Dogma which had MTX and I've never really heard any balance problems with that one either

I think people's fear is that the economy of DMC4 wasn't designed with MTXs in mind. MTXs were only added for DMC4SE. Whereas if MTXs are being designed into DMCV from the start, they might unequally balance the game to make MTXs more appealing. For instance, one of the new features of the game is that if you die, you can spend red orbs to come back to life instantly without having to start the mission again. The amount of red orbs you need increase each time, and you can also spend more orbs to come back to life with more health. That wasn't in any of the previous games (they used Gold orbs to come back to life when you died).

But, the flipside is that rather than orbs for items and proud souls for skills, you now have one currency for both, which means you'll likely earn more red orbs per mission.

I agree though. In DMC4SE, being able to buy all the skills and a bunch of blue orbs right off the bat would definitely help some people, but at the same time, buying skills doesn't make you skillful. It takes a while to get used to using the skills in the game as you unlock them. As such, there's not a lot of benefit in being able to unlock all the skills early if you don't know when and how best to use them, which comes from playing the game.

Penn · 26-09-2018 10:19am

Hmmm... seems like they've announced they've also gotten rid of Vital Stars and Holy Water.

Holy Water I can understand, it always felt kinda cheap to me anyway. But Vital Stars? That could be seen as more of a push towards increasing the likelihood of you dying so you use red orbs to come back to life (which, when you run out of red orbs, you're more likely to pay to buy more rather than start a mission again). But on the other hand, they seem to have counterbalanced it with getting more green orbs during battle, and your Devil Trigger filling more quickly and regenerating your health more when you're in DT (for Dante at least, unknown how it'll work for Nero and V's gameplay as Nero at least doesn't have a Devil Trigger in this game).

This seems like an unnecessary change too far. I get that you might receive more green orbs while defeating smaller enemies, but my main concern would be boss battles, where you're more likely to die.

But there does also seem to be a new checkpoint system rather than making you restart the mission. And not having to spend orbs on Vital Stars or Devil Stars could also mean you'll still have a decent amount of red orbs to bring yourself back if you do die, without having to buy them for real money.

It's a big enough change, considering it's the 5th game in the series. It's a near-complete rework of the entire economy of the game. I just really do hope they get the balance right in it, and at least all this info is coming out well in advance of release so they can gauge people's reactions and adjust if necessary.

one armed dwarf · 26-09-2018 10:56am

I'm not a fan of the revive mechanic either. I learned about that after posting that last post. If the 'you died' screen offers the option to pay for in-game MTX beside continue/quit then that's an ugly situation.

I'm not bothered about them taking out healing items though. DMC3 had a problem where you could basically tank the bosses on harder difficulties with a massive hoard of vital stars. It's always had the biggest style rank penalty as well. If they are taking that out but making DT health gain faster it becomes a non-issue I think.

Especially as you can get DT from taunts. Having just platted DMC3 recently so many fights in that can be turned around by just taunting at bosses like a cool guy but only cause you want the DT. In DMC3 you get a whole 2 DT 'slots' per taunt (but you can't spam it). Even the trailers are full of taunts by Nero so I think they're trying to push this mechanic in people's faces a bit and remind them to use it.

Which is cool cause I love taunts. Especially Nero's taunts. His are the best.

I think items in general in these games teach players weird lessons, like not upgrading their skills in favour of having a hoard of items and never really getting a proper chance to get better at the game.

Penn · 26-09-2018 11:39am

one armed dwarf wrote: »

I'm not a fan of the revive mechanic either. I learned about that after posting that last post. If the 'you died' screen offers the option to pay for in-game MTX beside continue/quit then that's an ugly situation.

I'm not bothered about them taking out healing items though. DMC3 had a problem where you could basically tank the bosses on harder difficulties with a massive hoard of vital stars. It's always had the biggest style rank penalty as well. If they are taking that out but making DT health gain faster it becomes a non-issue I think.

Especially as you can get DT from taunts. Having just platted DMC3 recently so many fights in that can be turned around by just taunting at bosses like a cool guy but only cause you want the DT. In DMC3 you get a whole 2 DT 'slots' per taunt (but you can't spam it). Even the trailers are full of taunts by Nero so I think they're trying to push this mechanic in people's faces a bit and remind them to use it.

Which is cool cause I love taunts. Especially Nero's taunts. His are the best.

I think items in general in these games teach players weird lessons, like not upgrading their skills in favour of having a hoard of items and never really getting a proper chance to get better at the game.

Yeah if they are balancing it out with better DT health regen, and also letting you go into DT more often, it does seem like it could be better overall, as I rarely went into DT while just fighting mobs of enemies because I was always trying to save it. That in itself could negate the need for vital stars, while also keeping you out of menus and in the thick of gameplay for longer. Again though I can see how that will work for Dante, but Nero doesn't seem to have a DT, and we don't know what V's gameplay is like yet. They'll need equivalent methods of health regen if items aren't available to them either.

one armed dwarf · 26-09-2018 11:46am

Tbf, Nero's theme song is called "Devil Trigger"

V, I wonder how that goes. I've seen speculated that his fighting style will be like JoJo's Bizarre Adventure or Persona if it was an action game. Standing back and letting the 'stand/persona' do all the fighting

Maybe he has a sort of switch mechanic between offensive DPS type summons and more tanky ones that might mitigate damage and have support stuff like healing

K.O.Kiki · 26-09-2018 2:47pm

J. Marston wrote: »

Seeing a costume pack there makes me appreciate another thing from Spiderman. You get 25 skins in the game to choose from with none as DLC. They probably could've gone the 0.99c/€1.99 per skin and made loads at the expense of justifiable criticism.

Different budgets.
If Spiderman wasn't funded by Marvel/Sony, you can bet they'd have added those in.

one armed dwarf · 10-10-2018 12:46am

one armed dwarf wrote: »

I'm not a fan of the revive mechanic either. I learned about that after posting that last post. If the 'you died' screen offers the option to pay for in-game MTX beside continue/quit then that's an ugly situation..

So this is a thing, the game over screen lets you pay to revive Dante if you want and as many times as you want

https://youtu.be/XGgG6mr-vs0?t=4510

Also the revive does damage to the boss

****ing lol

Penn · 10-10-2018 9:21am

one armed dwarf wrote: »

So this is a thing, the game over screen lets you pay to revive Dante if you want and as many times as you want

https://youtu.be/XGgG6mr-vs0?t=4510

Also the revive does damage to the boss

****ing lol

I read though that the cost of reviving goes up each time you do it. Not sure if that's just in each mission and then resets or if it constantly goes up.

bugs · 10-10-2018 10:28am

The new hat weapon uses red souls as ammo, which they were quick to stress also provides significantly more red souls when used effectively to defeat enemies. A risk-reward situation.

Hopefully they're true to the claim that the in game economy will be balanced such that you should never feel like you need to buy souls. Time will tell.

Penn · 10-10-2018 12:03pm

bugs wrote: »

The new hat weapon uses red souls as ammo, which they were quick to stress also provides significantly more red souls when used effectively to defeat enemies. A risk-reward situation.

Hopefully they're true to the claim that the in game economy will be balanced such that you should never feel like you need to buy souls. Time will tell.

From what I read the Faust hat may be more of an end-game weapon, possibly only available after you've beaten the game or have no more upgrades to buy with red orbs.

one armed dwarf · 10-10-2018 12:14pm

The problem is DMC5 doesn't really have a fail state. When Dante 'dies' he just sort of lays there a bit waiting to see if you have any orbs to revive him, or if you don't if you wouldn't mind just popping over to the MS store and buying some. Just a suggestion like.

I don't actually think the balance of the game will be changed by this (dunno about that Faust stuff) because DMC is hard enough as it is. But you can imagine a situation like where you're on DMD fighting Vergil or whatever and you die when he has a sliver of health left. Suddenly breaking open the wallet seems a lot more appealing.

They shouldnt be trying to design mechanics around the game to avoid taking the L when you die and that's not even getting into the ****tyness of the real money transaction side of it.

Penn · 10-10-2018 12:30pm

one armed dwarf wrote: »

The problem is DMC5 doesn't really have a fail state. When Dante 'dies' he just sort of lays there a bit waiting to see if you have any orbs to revive him, or if you don't if you wouldn't mind just popping over to the MS store and buying some. Just a suggestion like.

I don't actually think the balance of the game will be changed by this (dunno about that Faust stuff) because DMC is hard enough as it is. But you can imagine a situation like where you're on DMD fighting Vergil or whatever and you die when he has a sliver of health left. Suddenly breaking open the wallet seems a lot more appealing.

They shouldnt be trying to design mechanics around the game to avoid taking the L when you die and that's not even getting into the ****tyness of the real money transaction side of it.

I agree, but at the same time, if you're in DMD on a final boss, chances are you have a sh*t-tonne of orbs anyway because you'll already have bought almost all your upgrades in previous playthroughs. Since you can't buy Vital or Devil Stars any more, the orbs you may have been using on those can now be used on revives.

I just haven't seen anything to overly concern me about the new in-game economy yet, because for everything that concerns me, there does tend to be something to counter-balance it. But even with that, one of the things thats so helpful in DMC is the ability to go back to previous missions, farm orbs, and prepare yourself better for whatever you're stuck on. If for example you're fighting a DMD final boss and you keep dying, you can spend red orbs to revive, but if you're out of red orbs, fail the mission, repeat earlier missions or do Bloody Palace, and build up your red orbs again. That has always been kind of a grind element which has always been in DMC games.

one armed dwarf · 17-10-2018 8:19pm

I played the DMC5 demo at an event at a London bar today, quick impressions is that it's way more floaty I think. I couldn't get a full grasp of that arm system as it seens like there's a lot to learn there so I stuck to the very basic DMC4 bread and butter. The timings for stuff feels different tho so it was hard to nail those basic attacks.

One thing is that helm breaker is mapped to back lockon and Y which screwed me up a lot, I'm surprised I got an A to be honest.

It's seems good but very hard to judge with such a short demo. I did manage to do the thing from the trailer where Nero throws the big car eating Goliath into a tower for massive damage, so that felt very cool.

One thing now is that there's way more opportunities to manually rev your sword, so that mechanic is more accessible. The timing for instant rev is the same tho.

The big thing I come away from is feeling it might be slower than DMC4, which isn't necessarily a bad thing but I do feel some sort of buffering between movement as Nero adjusts to his next animation state. This might contribute to my feeling a little rudderless on the aerial combat.

The demo boss is a lot like the one at the start of DMC4 but I had more fun with him. It's a good tutorial for bullying big enemies and managing your position and iframe and stuff.

Robert ninja · 30-10-2018 6:29pm

I think I'm out.

31-10-2018 9:31am

Modern Gaming at its finest

Devil May Cry 5

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