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Border Poll discussion

12357…92

Comments

  • #122
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    circadian wrote: »
    I'd be inclined to agree with this. As a northern nationalist living in Dublin I'd like to see a solid proposal of how a United Ireland may look should a border poll pass, before a border poll is proposed. Brexit has shown us that being unprepared for a fundamental change and not having these discussions before asking the electorate leads to absolute chaos.

    For me and for most people north of the border, flags won't be an issue despite it being a northern trope most people care about roofs over heads and food on the table. It's always a minority that seems to get the lions share of the media's attention in the north and I feel this misrepresents that majority of the population there.

    If Brexit goes as badly as expected then the north will be the hardest hit first, health service will suffer, access to produce and essential services will become strained. This will be a harsh reality for the unionists who voted remain and those that go are now on the fence having seen what a shambles the whole thing is. Ultimately, they'll want stability and quality of life and talking to my friends and family who are moderate unionists, providing food and a home for their children is far, far more important than an ideology that could possibly put them in a very dangerous position.

    I've quoted Carson before but I think it is possibly the most fitting quote for the state of Unionism as it has always been, but it is now laid bare and more obvious than ever before in the shambles that is Brexit;

    "What a fool I was! I was only a puppet, and so was Ulster, and so was Ireland, in the political game that was to get the Conservative Party into Power."

    A handy statement or get out of jail free card for using the Conservatives to wield power while putting the greater good on the back burner. Foster can use it. Do even the DUP believe they have the good of the people ahead of themselves?


  • #123
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,174 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Havockk wrote: »
    Did you read this article? This flag isn't connected to Ireland at all.

    Did you pick up on this comment?

    "Saint Patrick's Saltire is sometimes used as a cross-community symbol with less political baggage than either the Union Flag or the Ulster Banner, seen as pro-Unionist, or the Irish tricolour used by Irish nationalists."

    It's provenance predates the Act of Union, and could be seen as a return to those times.


  • #124
    Havockk
    Registered Users Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Did you pick up on this comment?

    "Saint Patrick's Saltire is sometimes used as a cross-community symbol with less political baggage than either the Union Flag or the Ulster Banner, seen as pro-Unionist, or the Irish tricolour used by Irish nationalists."

    It's provenance predates the Act of Union, and could be seen as a return to those times.

    I'm on board about the necessity of a new flag for a New Ireland, but this is a flag of a British chivalric order. I've never seen it once, and I've lived over 40 years in the North. It's a non-runner, it is, in dead parrot parlance, dead.


  • #125
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,295 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Did you pick up on this comment?

    "Saint Patrick's Saltire is sometimes used as a cross-community symbol with less political baggage than either the Union Flag or the Ulster Banner, seen as pro-Unionist, or the Irish tricolour used by Irish nationalists."

    It's provenance predates the Act of Union, and could be seen as a return to those times.

    What does it symbolise?


  • #126
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,174 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Havockk wrote: »
    I'm on board about the necessity of a new flag for a New Ireland, but this is a flag of a British chivalric order. I've never seen it once, and I've lived over 40 years in the North. It's a non-runner, it is, in dead parrot parlance, dead.

    There is a view that its origins are in the coat of arms of the Duke of Leinster.


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  • #127
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,295 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Havockk wrote: »
    I'm on board about the necessity of a new flag for a New Ireland, but this is a flag of a British chivalric order. I've never seen it once, and I've lived over 40 years in the North. It's a non-runner, it is, in dead parrot parlance, dead.

    This New Ireland - how is it meant to differ from what we have now? The Ireland people think of is that old, RC dominated, conservative country. I think we have moved away from that and if you look at the two Ireland's now, its NI that is still extremely conservative (both nationalists and unionists).


  • #128
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    I don't think any part of the British flag would be a runner and as arguable as it's provenance is, it's always going to be associated with the British flag first and foremost. We have variations in the former colonies already. I don't think a united Ireland wants to join the long list of those nations. Complete separation under a new flag IMO.
    jm08 wrote: »
    This New Ireland - how is it meant to differ from what we have now? The Ireland people think of is that old, RC dominated, conservative country. I think we have moved away from that and if you look at the two Ireland's now, its NI that is still extremely conservative (both nationalists and unionists).

    Another reason to ditch any antiquated Saint association too.


  • #129
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,174 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    I don't think any part of the British flag would be a runner and as arguable as it's provenance is, it's always going to be associated with the British flag first and foremost. We have variations in the former colonies already. I don't think a united Ireland wants to join the long list of those nations. Complete separation under a new flag IMO.



    Another reason to ditch any antiquated Saint association too.


    That is a very one-sided nationalist view of a united Ireland. Unless a united Ireland recognises and embraces the legitimacy of its British past, it will not embrace all of its people.


  • #130
    Havockk
    Registered Users Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    blanch152 wrote: »
    That is a very one-sided nationalist view of a united Ireland. Unless a united Ireland recognises and embraces the legitimacy of its British past, it will not embrace all of its people.

    Legitimacy?


  • #131
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,174 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Havockk wrote: »
    Legitimacy?

    Well, yes.


    The Irish parliament voted for the Act of Union.

    The Irish Dail voted to accept the Treaty.

    Both of those democratic actions gave legitimacy to various aspects of British rule.

    Unpleasant truths for those of a romantic nationalist worldview, but truths nonetheless. You can argue on exactly how much legitimacy they had, but for a significant minority of people living on this island, those decisions are part of their heritage and should be recognised and embraced in a united Ireland.


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  • #132
    Havockk
    Registered Users Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Well, yes.


    The Irish parliament voted for the Act of Union.

    The Irish Dail voted to accept the Treaty.

    Both of those democratic actions gave legitimacy to various aspects of British rule.

    Unpleasant truths for those of a romantic nationalist worldview, but truths nonetheless. You can argue on exactly how much legitimacy they had, but for a significant minority of people living on this island, those decisions are part of their heritage and should be recognised and embraced in a united Ireland.

    Well, we certainly are far apart in what constitutes legitimacy in that case. Personally, I don't consider the parliament of a state that is only comprised of one religion, of which it is a tiny minority to act as the arbiters of either legitimacy or indeed democracy.


  • #133
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,295 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    blanch152 wrote: »
    That is a very one-sided nationalist view of a united Ireland. Unless a united Ireland recognises and embraces the legitimacy of its British past, it will not embrace all of its people.

    I'm not sure what you mean by legitimacy of British past, but I don't think we should be held hostage by the likes of the DUP who will be offended by everything Irish anyway.


  • #134
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,272 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    An Ciarraioch wrote: »
    As others have said, either the current Presidential banner or a gold harp on a green background would seem sufficiently neutral for the flag, maybe take the Spanish approach to the anthem by playing the Derry/Londonderry Air. In terms of the Border poll itself, that would likely require years of preparation before holding the vote, even if one were to be called this year - some all-island civic forum would be required to debate the various political and economic issues involved, and while unionists would almost certainly abstain, business and agricultural bodies might partially represent their interests.

    Lol, why? You want to effectively remove/reduce Irish symbolism for the sake of not offending self-identified non-Irish in Ireland. That's pure cuck talk in fairness. If the non-Irish resident in Ireland are offended by Irishness, then they are aware of the location of ports of entry.


  • #135
    Havockk
    Registered Users Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Lol, why? You want to effectively remove/reduce Irish symbolism for the sake of not offending self-identified non-Irish in Ireland. That's pure cuck talk in fairness. If the non-Irish resident in Ireland are offended by Irishness, then they are aware of the location of ports of entry.

    Rubbish. They have to be accommodated and protected.


  • #136
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,295 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Well, yes.

    The Irish parliament voted for the Act of Union.
    The Irish Dail voted to accept the Treaty.

    Both of those democratic actions gave legitimacy to various aspects of British rule.

    Unpleasant truths for those of a romantic nationalist worldview, but truths nonetheless. You can argue on exactly how much legitimacy they had, but for a significant minority of people living on this island, those decisions are part of their heritage and should be recognised and embraced in a united Ireland.

    So basically, there was bribary and trickery involved in the passing of the Act of Union.
    Terrible war was threatened if partition wasn't accepted.

    Is this your idea of democracy?


  • #137
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,295 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Havockk wrote: »
    Rubbish. They have to be accommodated and protected.

    Protected from what?


  • #138
    Havockk
    Registered Users Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    jm08 wrote: »
    Protected from what?

    Citizenship rights etc for those who claim British as their identity.


  • #139
    An Ciarraioch
    Registered Users Posts: 5,798 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Well, yes.


    The Irish parliament voted for the Act of Union.

    The Irish Dail voted to accept the Treaty.

    Both of those democratic actions gave legitimacy to various aspects of British rule.

    Unpleasant truths for those of a romantic nationalist worldview, but truths nonetheless. You can argue on exactly how much legitimacy they had, but for a significant minority of people living on this island, those decisions are part of their heritage and should be recognised and embraced in a united Ireland.

    It's been well established that the 1800 vote only passed through extensive bribery:

    https://www.libraryireland.com/JoyceHistory/Union.php


  • #140
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,295 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Havockk wrote: »
    Citizenship rights etc for those who claim British as their identity.

    Going on the GFA, a very high percentage of people from the republic don't have a problem with people's right to identify as British, Irish or Both.

    That will need to fit in with the rest though. Personally, I'd like to see all flags, kerbstone painting etc. being banned in Northern Ireland while I would welcome Orange Parades etc, 12th July a national holiday treated the same as St Patrick's Day with parade on O'Connell Street, Dublin.

    I do realise that people from NI are very sensitive to each other's symbolism, but lets embrace both rather than throwing one or the other out completely.


  • #141
    Havockk
    Registered Users Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    jm08 wrote: »
    Going on the GFA, a very high percentage of people from the republic don't have a problem with people's right to identify as British, Irish or Both.

    That will need to fit in with the rest though. Personally, I'd like to see all flags, kerbstone painting etc. being banned in Northern Ireland while I would welcome Orange Parades etc, 12th July a national holiday treated the same as St Patrick's Day with parade on O'Connell Street, Dublin.

    I do realise that people from NI are very sensitive to each other's symbolism, but lets embrace both rather than throwing one or the other out completely.

    The Kerbs are not much of a blight outside certain areas. Still, I'd be very reticent about being draconian in banning such things. Such things will fade over themselves over time as that identity subsumes into a more homogenous one down the line.


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  • #142
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,174 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    jm08 wrote: »
    So basically, there was bribary and trickery involved in the passing of the Act of Union.
    Terrible war was threatened if partition wasn't accepted.

    Is this your idea of democracy?


    Isn't doomsday being threatened if the Withdrawal Agreement isn't ratified? We may still have the spectre of the HOC voting for a no-deal Brexit and bravely and democratically telling the world to do one, but is that an advertisement for democracy?

    A democratic decision was made taking all of the circumstances into account.


  • #143
    Havockk
    Registered Users Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Isn't doomsday being threatened if the Withdrawal Agreement isn't ratified? We may still have the spectre of the HOC voting for a no-deal Brexit and bravely and democratically telling the world to do one, but is that an advertisement for democracy?

    A democratic decision was made taking all of the circumstances into account.

    Brexit mess is far removed from democracy.


  • #144
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,272 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Havockk wrote: »
    Rubbish. They have to be accommodated and protected.

    Of course they'll be accommodated and protected. To say that we have to remove Irish symbols to appease non-Irish people who are offended by Irishness is pure nonsense.


  • #145
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,272 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Havockk wrote: »
    Citizenship rights etc for those who claim British as their identity.

    British nationals have the right to reside here unrestricted. Whether or not the Ulster-Scots people remain British Citizens is a matter for the home office to decide.


  • #146
    An Ciarraioch
    Registered Users Posts: 5,798 ✭✭✭An Ciarraioch


    cgcsb wrote: »
    British nationals have the right to reside here unrestricted. Whether or not the Ulster-Scots people remain British Citizens is a matter for the home office to decide.

    Assuming the GFA remains in force, they would be entitled to British citizenship, similar to nationalists currently with Irish citizenship?


  • #147
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,272 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    jm08 wrote: »
    Going on the GFA, a very high percentage of people from the republic don't have a problem with people's right to identify as British, Irish or Both.

    That will need to fit in with the rest though. Personally, I'd like to see all flags, kerbstone painting etc. being banned in Northern Ireland while I would welcome Orange Parades etc, 12th July a national holiday treated the same as St Patrick's Day with parade on O'Connell Street, Dublin.

    I do realise that people from NI are very sensitive to each other's symbolism, but lets embrace both rather than throwing one or the other out completely.

    Such a tradition would be completely alien to Dublin, not having a resident 'orange' community and all. We have Chinese new year and a community to match. That being said we had the Pope's visit in Dublin despite the lack of a significant community of support, the visit would've been better handled in Mayo


  • #148
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    An Ciarraioch wrote: »
    Assuming the GFA remains in force, they would be entitled to British citizenship, similar to nationalists currently with Irish citizenship?

    There is no time limit on the GFA


  • #149
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,174 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Havockk wrote: »
    Brexit mess is far removed from democracy.


    It is democracy. Sometimes the people or the parliamentarians vote for something many of us don't like or don't want, be that Brexit, Act of Union or partition. However, not liking it doesn't make it undemocratic.


  • #150
    jm08
    Registered Users Posts: 11,295 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Isn't doomsday being threatened if the Withdrawal Agreement isn't ratified? We may still have the spectre of the HOC voting for a no-deal Brexit and bravely and democratically telling the world to do one, but is that an advertisement for democracy?

    A democratic decision was made taking all of the circumstances into account.

    Lloyd George threatening ''terrible and immediate war''? No one is threatening war if the WA isn't ratified.

    One thing that this whole Brexit thing shows is that British democracy is shambolic.


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  • #151
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,272 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    An Ciarraioch wrote: »
    Assuming the GFA remains in force, they would be entitled to British citizenship, similar to nationalists currently with Irish citizenship?

    The GFA will have run it's course by then. Perhaps a new agreement will be in place offering the 2million people of former NI a British passport if they want in a similar way to how Irish people born in the Irish Free State before 1949 could. But that's up to the negotiators at the time. The British state may be reluctant to offer this after having washed their hands of the NI experiment. But who knows they might do for the sake of a quiet life.


This discussion has been closed.
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