Workplace charging experience

Calahonda52 · 28-08-2018 2:46pm

waynegalway wrote: »

Very thorough, thanks. Is all of that applicable to public sector employers as well (I'm just not sure if the term "business" is defined to include those)?

Thanks: re your question, I have no idea: its a very interesting question:)

KCross · 28-08-2018 5:49pm

waynegalway wrote: »

Very thorough, thanks. Is all of that applicable to public sector employers as well (I'm just not sure if the term "business" is defined to include those)?

Companies and sole traders is what it says.

Public sector doesn't fit either of those definitions, I presume? PS will have a budget for each year and they spend it and its gone. No depreciation or corporation tax to worry about there. Could be wrong though.

A question to revenue or SEAI will be your only definitive answer on that one.

NIMAN · 28-08-2018 8:17pm

I once heard a cost of 10k to have one of those public chargers installed.

Not sure how true that would be.

tedpan · 28-08-2018 9:42pm

NIMAN wrote:

I once heard a cost of 10k to have one of those public chargers installed.

We had a quote at work for 12k 5 units with 2 outputs, so up to 10 cars charging at once.

Maybe a fast charger would cost 10k?

NIMAN · 28-08-2018 11:20pm

tedpan wrote: »

We had a quote at work for 12k 5 units with 2 outputs, so up to 10 cars charging at once.

Maybe a fast charger would cost 10k?

Can't remember where I heard the 10k figure from. Probably totally wrong.

Is the 12k for 10 spots, is that the equipment only or fitted as well? Sounds very cheap, and makes me even more disgusted my own workplace hasn't made an effort to get some installed.

McGiver · 29-08-2018 12:06am

KCross wrote:

Overall the end result is more or less the same to the employer just that its all done in year 1 and thus improves their cash flow in the short term. Whether thats enough incentive for them to buy it is another question entirely.

OK, but what's the actual benefit? If I understand correctly it just reduces the tax base in 1 particular year by the cost of the equipment instead of spreading the cost (and thus reducing the tax base) over several years. But it's still an expense (i.e. an L on P&L) the employer has to make. There is no tax benefit per se and no grant either.

Also, then there is a question of who pays for the electricity consumed. And if it's the employee the how is this facilitated.

NIMAN · 29-08-2018 3:19am

I remember when I spoke to someone from the relevant dept that might actually install a workplace charger, they said that I would have to pay for the electricity, as it wouldn't be fair on other employees if some got free fuel for their cars.

I agreed of course. (unless of course they were getting electricity to the chargers free too as some sort of Gov incentive)

McGiver · 29-08-2018 7:18am

NIMAN wrote: »

I remember when I spoke to someone from the relevant dept that might actually install a workplace charger, they said that I would have to pay for the electricity, as it wouldn't be fair on other employees if some got free fuel for their cars.

I agreed of course. (unless of course they were getting electricity to the chargers free too as some sort of Gov incentive)

That's the argument from my peers.

"We don't get a free petrol from the company so you won't get this charging ever!"

gunnerfitzy · 29-08-2018 8:50am

McGiver wrote: »

That's the argument from my peers.

"We don't get a free petrol from the company so you won't get this charging ever!"

If this was the case could not the same argument be made by a non-hot drinks person regarding a tea-room or a non-smoking person about a sheltered smoking area?

They are facilities provided by the employer for all employees. If they are not availed of by some then that is a personal decision by the individual employee.

Must it now be a requirement that everyone must use a facility in order for it to be provided?

waynegalway · 29-08-2018 9:30am

gunnerfitzy wrote: »

If this was the case could not the same argument be made by a non-hot drinks person regarding a tea-room or a non-smoking person about a sheltered smoking area?

They are facilities provided by the employer for all employees. If they are not availed of by some then that is a personal decision by the individual employee.

Must it now be a requirement that everyone must use a facility in order for it to be provided?

I'm with you on this.

And even keeping it closer to the topic, what about staff who charge tablets/phones/laptops while at work? If you are going to be charged for choosing to plug your car in at work, then why not charge people who choose to charge their electronics at work? It's essentially the same thing (except you could argue that in some cases charging a car at work is more essential for some staff than charging a phone).

In terms of figures, I wouldn't have a clue. But I remember reading somewhere that the average smartphone is very cheap to keep charged, in the order of a few euro a year. Say €2 to be conservative. And to keep it simple, let's say €3 for a tablet and €5 for a laptop. That's a total of €10 per year per person (very rough estimate, I know!). There's about 600 staff where I work, so that's €6000 in electricity a year for gadgets. I know not everyone will charge all those things, so let's half it for arguments sake. €3000 a year for staff to charge their devices.

So, if EV drivers are going to be charged, and we aim for an equitable workplace, there's a €3000 bill for all staff to pick up too.

I posted on this topic on another thread and I got shot down, so I'm currently wearing my tin hat!

PS. By the way, on the hot drinks, there actually *was* a directive issued on that a few years back, where we had a limit on complimentary tea/coffee we could offer visitors and at meetings.

KCross · 29-08-2018 11:28am

McGiver wrote: »

OK, but what's the actual benefit? If I understand correctly it just reduces the tax base in 1 particular year by the cost of the equipment instead of spreading the cost (and thus reducing the tax base) over several years. But it's still an expense (i.e. an L on P&L) the employer has to make. There is no tax benefit per se and no grant either.

Correct, no real assistance is given to the employer other than it makes it more palatable to proceed with the purchase. If the employer doesn't want to spend the money in the first place there is no financial incentive/assistance to buy the charger. Its just a cash flow thing.

The only other incentive is goodwill/PR/staff-retention etc. It will just be another one of those perks of the job like free tea, pension contributions, sports & social etc.
e.g. If you have a long commute and are saving €2000 a year in fuel and you use work place charging... are you going to move job to a workplace with no charging.... you'll need your net pay to go up by €2000 to break even and maybe change cars also. Its a simplified example but it will play into people's psyche when they get hooked on work place charging.

McGiver wrote: »

Also, then there is a question of who pays for the electricity consumed. And if it's the employee the how is this facilitated.

Thats entirely down to the employer.
The last budget confirmed that there is no BIK for providing work place charging.

In my opinion, the employer should charge for the electricity and plan to break even on it so keep the costs down.
If its free it will cause the begrudgers to come out of the woodwork and it will also cause hogging in the same way the public infrastructure is hogged.

Unless you have a big bank of chargers in the car park you are going to need to share and encourage people to charge for a few hours and move. Maybe a time limit of 2-3hrs depending on how many charger points and EV's you have.

Orebro · 29-08-2018 11:58am

McGiver wrote: »

That's the argument from my peers.

"We don't get a free petrol from the company so you won't get this charging ever!"

I got so much begrudgery at the start like you wouldn't believe. One person even emailed Revenue to ask about the BIK implications of it, just to see if he could get our place to start charging me for the use. Another for months kept parking his ICE in the painted EV spaces because he "parked in the same space for years and wasn't changing because of this".

unkel · 29-08-2018 12:01pm

KCross wrote: »

In my opinion, the employer should charge for the electricity

The admin cost of charging is likely to be higher than the electricity costs. So no, they should not charge. They don't charge for coffee either, do they?

And a full charge everyday for an employee costs €10 per week. That's nothing compared to the wage cost. Not material.

KCross · 29-08-2018 12:27pm

unkel wrote: »

The admin cost of charging is likely to be higher than the electricity costs. So no, they should not charge. They don't charge for coffee either, do they?

And a full charge everyday for an employee costs €10 per week. That's nothing compared to the wage cost. Not material.

There are very simple charging mechanisms. I'm not talking about a complicated backend system with RFID cards, kWh meters etc.

The basic charge points for work places come with token systems. You put in your token and it allows you to charge based on kWh or time (whatever you program the unit to allow). Its simple and cost effective.

It also stops strangers using the charge point if your car park happens to be publicly accessible. Not an issue for some but it is for a lot of business parks.

Its not about charging for it to make money or cover the costs like you suggest... its about stopping begrudgery and abuse. Make it cheap.... €1 a token for 3hrs or something... its still cheap but it stops all the bad stuff.

You know yourself what free has done to the public infrastructure and there are enough anecdotes on this thread to tell you that free at the workplace is a real issue already for some.

If everyone at your workplace is happy to allow you free charging then good for you, it should/could remain free in that case!

I'm just saying charging for it can be a simple easy option/solution to deal with the issues.

gunnerfitzy · 29-08-2018 8:14pm

Orebro wrote: »

I got so much begrudgery at the start like you wouldn't believe. One person even emailed Revenue to ask about the BIK implications of it, just to see if he could get our place to start charging me for the use. Another for months kept parking his ICE in the painted EV spaces because he "parked in the same space for years and wasn't changing because of this".

Wow. What a bunch of *****!!I would have a few choice words for their retirement/farewell cards.

McGiver · 31-08-2018 12:09am

I actually roughly calculated the cost of the electricity. I estimated that I would charge maybe twice a week for 4 hours, consuming about 29kWh per week. At 0.20/kWh, this equals about 5.30/week or 275 annually. It's ridiculous even talking about it. Unless you have 20 EVs around...

McGiver · 31-08-2018 12:11am

Orebro wrote:

I got so much begrudgery at the start like you wouldn't believe. One person even emailed Revenue to ask about the BIK implications of it, just to see if he could get our place to start charging me for the use. Another for months kept parking his ICE in the painted EV spaces because he "parked in the same space for years and wasn't changing because of this".

That's a bit Irish alright

How large is your organisation? Just to see if I have any chance.

McGiver · 31-08-2018 12:14am

unkel wrote:

And a full charge everyday for an employee costs â‚¬10 per week. That's nothing compared to the wage cost. Not material.

Exactly, it's low it's even ridiculous to talk about it.
Now the issue may be the charger itself actually. What costs are we talking about? Simple, single, slow.

unkel · 31-08-2018 12:16am

Simple, single, slow, about EUR600-700

McGiver · 31-08-2018 12:18am

KCross wrote:

It also stops strangers using the charge point if your car park happens to be publicly accessible. Not an issue for some but it is for a lot of business parks.

This would/could be an issue in our place. Two largish companies in our biz park are going to install a charger soon, so I'm curious if they leave it public/free or not.

KCross wrote:

The basic charge points for work places come with token systems. You put in your token and it allows you to charge based on kWh or time (whatever you program the unit to allow). Its simple and cost effective.

Can you recommend any specific solution?

gunnerfitzy · 31-08-2018 7:16am

I wonder would a simple registration system work with a small, token subscription charge e.g. €2 per week.

Orebro · 31-08-2018 10:43am

gunnerfitzy wrote: »

I wonder would a simple registration system work with a small, token subscription charge e.g. €2 per week.

The point with this being it'll cost multiples of the cost of the electricity to administer any type of payment system.

KCross · 31-08-2018 10:46am

McGiver wrote: »

This would/could be an issue in our place. Two largish companies in our biz park are going to install a charger soon, so I'm curious if they leave it public/free or not.

Can you recommend any specific solution?

If you are going for simple, single, slow you won't get a token based system.

The next step up is the Rolec Autocharge range. Something like this..
https://evonestop.co.uk/products/autocharge-pedestal-2-way-3-phase-iec62196-type-2-socket?variant=40494294724

It has an optional extra where it accepts tokens.

gunnerfitzy wrote: »

I wonder would a simple registration system work with a small, token subscription charge e.g. €2 per week.

How would you administer it? It won't work if its an honour system! You have to have some smarts built into the charger.
The token system will work fine and costs nothing in admin costs.

KCross · 31-08-2018 10:47am

Orebro wrote: »

The point with this being it'll cost multiples of the cost of the electricity to administer any type of payment system.

Tokens on the charge point cost nothing to administer.

Orebro · 31-08-2018 11:42am

KCross wrote: »

Tokens on the charge point cost nothing to administer.

Who collects the money for the tokens / empties tokens from chargepoint / accounts for all the €2 deposited etc. It all takes human interaction, costing employee time to deal with - this time has to be accounted for as a cost too.

n97 mini · 31-08-2018 11:51am

Orebro wrote: »

Who collects the money for the tokens / empties tokens from chargepoint / accounts for all the €2 deposited etc. It all takes human interaction, costing employee time to deal with - this time has to be accounted for as a cost too.

That's the issue. A lot of companies don't handle any cash at all ever. With €2 coins they need to be stored (securely) and then processed at the end of the week/month. As there is no "bank run" as such (they don't handle cash) what happens to all the €2 coins?

My wife's workplace has recently installed a few CPs. It's token based, sort of. You have to "borrow" the RFID card from reception to start it.

KCross · 31-08-2018 11:55am

Orebro wrote: »

Who collects the money for the tokens / empties tokens from chargepoint / accounts for all the €2 deposited etc. It all takes human interaction, costing employee time to deal with - this time has to be accounted for as a cost too.

True. I stretched it a bit by saying "nothing". There is a cost, but its minimal/irrelevant.
Its not a big deal to have someone in the office in charge of the tokens and hand them out. Its not an onerous/time-consuming task.

Empty the tokens from the charge point every few weeks while you happen to be passing it anyway.... again, not a big deal.... seconds to do.

You can make it a big deal if you wish but it isn't.

What would be a big deal to administer is if it was an RFID type system with backend software. That would require buying RFID cards, having a device for programming them, backend software to setup the cards, giving access, connecting the charge point back to the backend system etc..... thats a big overhead.

Tokens.... not so much.

KCross · 31-08-2018 11:59am

n97 mini wrote: »

That's the issue. A lot of companies don't handle any cash at all ever. With €2 coins they need to be stored (securely) and then processed at the end of the week/month. As there is no "bank run" as such (they don't handle cash) what happens to all the €2 coins?

We have a Sports & Social with people who administer voucher schemes for play zones etc. I'd see the tokens as just another voucher scheme.

I'm not saying every company needs a token system. If you have a secure car park and plenty parking spaces and you put the charger where it is least likely to be ICE'd and there aren't begrudgers in the building then brilliant.... no tokens.

However, the reality for a lot of places is you have one or all of the above issues and you have to implement some control.

n97 mini wrote: »

My wife's workplace has recently installed a few CPs. It's token based, sort of. You have to "borrow" the RFID card from reception to start it.

Thats a pain in the hole, isn't it?
A keypad with a PIN or something would be better.

Any chance its like some of the eCars units that it will accept any RFID card? Has she tried her bank card on it!

n97 mini · 31-08-2018 12:22pm

KCross wrote: »

Thats a pain in the hole, isn't it?
A keypad with a PIN or something would be better.

It's not really. You've to pass reception anyway.

KCross wrote: »

Any chance its like some of the eCars units that it will accept any RFID card? Has she tried her bank card on it!

No, the proper card is required. They're the same make as the SCPs in Salt Lake City that I posted a pic of in the Ionity thread, albeit untethered. I'm presuming that's because her company HQ is there.

KCross · 31-08-2018 12:57pm

n97 mini wrote: »

It's not really. You've to pass reception anyway.

But does she have to plug her car in, go to reception to get the RFID card, back to the car to turn it on and then back into the office?

And do that in reverse when disconnecting or does it release the cable without the need for the RFID?

Workplace charging experience

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