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General Irish Government discussion thread [See Post 1805]

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    #752
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    It means they don't close I'd expect. Hardly spin.

    Why not say that? I'd regard it as spin.
    I'm not criticising the service providers by saying that BTW.
    I'd agree more beds are needed in hospitals and have seen at first hand recently the tough job that front line staff have too, getting space on trolleys even for patients in a full hospital is difficult.
    Had my young lad in A&E lately for 20 hrs or so.
    Between Xmas and new year I had an infection that had to be lanced, got a trolley on day 1, got a bed and had my procedure under GA on day 2 because no anaesthiest was available on Day 1.
    Was kept in overnight on Day 2 and 3 as bandages had to be changed by a nurse every day and all the local District nurses were off till after the new year, I was fine and could have worked even if I had been let home.
    I wanted to go home and back each day while necessary but Doc said no.
    I could discharge myself the nurse in the ward said but if I did I'd have to go back to to A&E each day and queue each day if I did.
    But basically what should have been a 1 nighter was 3 because staff were off.


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    #753
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Edward M wrote: »
    Why not say that? I'd regard it as spin.
    I'm not criticising the service providers by saying that BTW.
    I'd agree more beds are needed in hospitals and have seen at first hand recently the tough job that front line staff have too, getting space on trolleys even for patients in a full hospital is difficult.
    Had my young lad in A&E lately for 20 hrs or so.
    Between Xmas and new year I had an infection that had to be lanced, got a trolley on day 1, got a bed and had my procedure under GA on day 2 because no anaesthiest was available on Day 1.
    Was kept in overnight on Day 2 and 3 as bandages had to be changed by a nurse every day and all the local District nurses were off till after the new year, I was fine and could have worked even if I had been let home.
    I wanted to go home and back each day while necessary but Doc said no.
    I could discharge myself the nurse in the ward said but if I did I'd have to go back to to A&E each day and queue each day if I did.
    But basically what should have been a 1 nighter was 3 because staff were off.

    This is exactly the problem. While you were sitting in a bed waiting for staff to turn up to work, there were people queueing in A&E.

    It is mind-boggling how Matt thinks that is all Leo's fault. He must want a Superman as Taoiseach.

    The spin and nonsense on these boards is incredible.


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    #754
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,402 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Now Varadkar is suggesting staff not taking holidays would help solve this and staff organisations saying they are actually due hours and working over time.

    Again, they can both be right on this point. They are in no way mutually exclusive.

    The HSE needs more money, more staff and more beds. I am not going to argue that point - though it is not as easy to deliver as you seem to think. There have been many failings in the running of the HSE and there continue to be huge issues.

    None of this detracts from the point that your original comments accusing Varadkar of being "seriously so ill-informed" were way off the mark - more staff can indeed lead to fewer patients on trolleys.


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    #755
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Edward M wrote: »
    Why not say that? I'd regard it as spin.
    I'm not criticising the service providers by saying that BTW.
    I'd agree more beds are needed in hospitals and have seen at first hand recently the tough job that front line staff have too, getting space on trolleys even for patients in a full hospital is difficult.
    Had my young lad in A&E lately for 20 hrs or so.
    Between Xmas and new year I had an infection that had to be lanced, got a trolley on day 1, got a bed and had my procedure under GA on day 2 because no anaesthiest was available on Day 1.
    Was kept in overnight on Day 2 and 3 as bandages had to be changed by a nurse every day and all the local District nurses were off till after the new year, I was fine and could have worked even if I had been let home.
    I wanted to go home and back each day while necessary but Doc said no.
    I could discharge myself the nurse in the ward said but if I did I'd have to go back to to A&E each day and queue each day if I did.
    But basically what should have been a 1 nighter was 3 because staff were off.

    I had almost the exact same experience except it was four days. I also wanted to go home but got the same - 'you will have to queue to get back in' story.

    Tests were not available after 4 pm because staff go home then resulting in an extra day.


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    #756
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    I had almost the exact same experience except it was four days. I also wanted to go home but got the same - 'you will have to queue to get back in' story.

    Tests were not available after 4 pm because staff go home then resulting in an extra day.

    I said to the nurse I could come back here to the ward even, she said we have enough to do here without patients from outside as well, that's what A&E is for.
    She was speaking the truth and her answer made perfect sense.


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    #757
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Again, they can both be right on this point. They are in no way mutually exclusive.

    The HSE needs more money, more staff and more beds. I am not going to argue that point - though it is not as easy to deliver as you seem to think. There have been many failings in the running of the HSE and there continue to be huge issues.

    None of this detracts from the point that your original comments accusing Varadkar of being "seriously so ill-informed" were way off the mark - more staff can indeed lead to fewer patients on trolleys.

    It has us discussing staff shortages due to vacation days, when we know it's a very complex issue and bed shortages is the number one problem. That's Leo's goal, it's disingenuous and shows he's happy to spin and try divert rather than tackle problems. That's the issue.


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    #758
    Edward M
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭Edward M


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    It has us discussing staff shortages due to vacation days, when we know it's a very complex issue and bed shortages is the number one problem. That Leo's goal, it's disingenuous and shows he's happy to spin and try divert rather than tackle problems. That's the issue.

    I get that point.


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    #759
    corner back 2
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭corner back 2


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    I had almost the exact same experience except it was four days. I also wanted to go home but got the same - 'you will have to queue to get back in' story.

    Tests were not available after 4 pm because staff go home then resulting in an extra day.

    The staff going home is not the problem. The problem is there is not enough staff to cover the hours that need to be covered. No amount of cancelling leave etc can coverify the fact there is not enough staff. If every department is to be open 24hrs you need to recruit way more staff. Staff can only work an 8 or 12 hour day as rostered and do 39hrs per week. More staff is the issue not current staff going home when they are rostered to or taking leave which everyone is entitled to. There is no such time as peak time in hospitals, they are currently running very close to or above 100% capacity all year round.


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    #760
    TheRiverman
    Registered Users Posts: 6,065 ✭✭✭TheRiverman


    Mr Varadkar is a Doctor,perhaps he might help out in a hospital over the Christmas and New Year period when the Dail is in recess for an immoral length of time from about mid December to mid January.


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    #761
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    TheRiverman wrote: »
    Mr Varadkar is a Doctor,perhaps he might help out in a hospital over the Christmas and New Year period when the Dail is in recess for an immoral length of time from about mid December to mid January.

    Maybe he'll keep the Dail open during the holidays and summer break until they attempt to solve the myriad national crises.


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    #762
    Good loser
    Registered Users Posts: 3,178 ✭✭✭Good loser


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Maybe he'll keep the Dail open during the holidays and summer break until they attempt to solve the myriad national crises.


    You can backchannel every problem to either Leo (or Eoghan).



    Fit the facts to suit the charge.



    Over and over and over again.


    Tedious in the extreme.


    [A nephew works in a London hospital. On Jan 2 this year 29 nurses had phoned in sick by lunchtime. Theresa May's fault no doubt!]


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    #763
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,839 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    It’s comedy at this stage. Economy allegedly booming and things are going backwards! Christ if you looked up the definition of talk is cheap in the dictionary, you’d find a picture of varadkar!


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    #764
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,402 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    It has us discussing staff shortages due to vacation days, when we know it's a very complex issue and bed shortages is the number one problem. That's Leo's goal, it's disingenuous and shows he's happy to spin and try divert rather than tackle problems. That's the issue.

    Bed shortages and staff shortages are related - they are not separate problems.
    corner back 2 wrote: »
    The staff going home is not the problem. The problem is there is not enough staff to cover the hours that need to be covered. No amount of cancelling leave etc can coverify the fact there is not enough staff. If every department is to be open 24hrs you need to recruit way more staff. Staff can only work an 8 or 12 hour day as rostered and do 39hrs per week. More staff is the issue not current staff going home when they are rostered to or taking leave which everyone is entitled to. There is no such time as peak time in hospitals, they are currently running very close to or above 100% capacity all year round.

    Absolutely. It was staff shortages that led to the absurd practice of 36 hour shifts for junior doctors (now thankfully a "mere" 24). You can't have labs, radiology etc open 24 hours or even just 7 days a week unless you have the staff to do so as the current staff certainly should not be expected to work any more. We need to be willing to accept that a) this will cost a lot more and b) it will take quite a long time to actually recruit the staff.


    This comment, nonetheless, was in reference to an emergency situation that seemingly happens every year. Technically there is nothing to say the staff could not be rostered on as normal over Christmas period. It is absolutely a short-term patch and does nothing to impact the general problem, but it is also far from the ludicrous and ill-informed suggestion it is being portrayed as here (and no, I wouldn't be thrilled about it if I worked in a hospital either).


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    #765
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,402 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    Maybe he'll keep the Dail open during the holidays and summer break until they attempt to solve the myriad national crises.

    The Dáil being in session and the government and TDs working are completely separate things, but I'm sure you know that.


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    #766
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    It has us discussing staff shortages due to vacation days, when we know it's a very complex issue and bed shortages is the number one problem. That's Leo's goal, it's disingenuous and shows he's happy to spin and try divert rather than tackle problems. That's the issue.


    I don't think bed shortages is the number one problem.

    We put more public money per capita into the health service than nearly any other country in the world. That money is being wasted somewhere. That is the number one problem. Sort out where our money is going first, before we put more money in.

    In that context, it makes perfect sense that what Varadkar is saying is true. A small thing like ensuring that there is no discretionary leave at a time when you are at peak demand is a simple measure to implement that could result in huge savings.

    I would guess that when some staff are on leave, others get called in on expensive overtime and the HSE are paying over twice for the same time.

    It seems to me that you are the one spinning here, as you have only one approach to every single problem the country has - blame Leo.

    There are other problems too. We have more nurses per patient than any other country. Are nurses not doing their job? Are they doing someone else's job? Have we wastage in the system? Are there restrictive practices from the union? We need answers to these questions from HSE management. At least Varadkar seems to have identified one of the issues and wants it addressed.


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    #767
    corner back 2
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭corner back 2


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Bed shortages


    This comment, nonetheless, was in reference to an emergency situation that seemingly happens every year. Technically there is nothing to say the staff could not be rostered on as normal over Christmas period. It is absolutely a short-term patch and does nothing to impact the general problem, but it is also far from the ludicrous and ill-informed suggestion it is being portrayed as here (and no, I wouldn't be thrilled about it if I worked in a hospital either).

    It's a complete misnomer to say Christmas time is an emergency situation short term patch. Nearly 600 on trolleys by the end of yesterday. The emergency situation has already started and will continue until February at least. Are you and Leo suggesting that there be no annual leave until then. It is complete deflection by Leo and obviously it has succeeded with some. Government by spin and sound bite continues unfortunately.


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    #768
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,402 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    corner back 2 wrote: »
    It's a complete misnomer to say Christmas time is an emergency situation short term patch. Nearly 600 on trolleys by the end of yesterday. The emergency situation has already started and will continue until February at least. Are you and Leo suggesting that there be no annual leave until then. It is complete deflection by Leo and obviously it has succeeded with some. Government by spin and sound bite continues unfortunately.

    It's an emergency short-term patch for literally a week or two were things might be even worse than now. It obviously doesn't directly address the main problem (of course the "main problem" is complicated with myriad factors and isn't easy to solve, clearly). There are structural issues in the HSE - none of this is doctor's or nurse's "fault" but this is just one of a number of things that need to be looked at in terms or addressing those issues.

    If someone has a suggestion for what else he so obviously should be doing or saying I'm happy to hear it.


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    #769
    corner back 2
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭corner back 2


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    It's an emergency short-term patch for literally a week or two were things might be even worse than now. It obviously doesn't directly address the main problem (of course the "main problem" is complicated with myriad factors and isn't easy to solve, clearly). There are structural issues in the HSE - none of this is doctor's or nurse's "fault" but this is just one of a number of things that need to be looked at in terms or addressing those issues.

    If someone has a suggestion for what else he so obviously should be doing or saying I'm happy to hear it.

    Do people not understand that no matter what time of year it is that if you don't have a bed to put someone into they will remain on a trolley in A/E no matter how few or how many people are on leave. Glad you are ok with 600 on trolleys yesterday but it can get worse at any stage between now and February or march. Leo and his advisors are so far removed from the realities of how hospitals operate at near breaking point 24/7 all year round. Amazing how so many get taken in by Leo's soundbites but as has been said before maybe we get the government we deserve.


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    #770
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,402 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    corner back 2 wrote: »
    Do people not understand that no matter what time of year it is that if you don't have a bed to put someone into they will remain on a trolley in A/E no matter how few or how many people are on leave. Glad you are ok with 600 on trolleys yesterday but it can get worse at any stage between now and February or march. Leo and his advisors are so far removed from the realities of how hospitals operate at near breaking point 24/7 all year round. Amazing how so many get taken in by Leo's soundbites but as has been said before maybe we get the government we deserve.

    Do people not understand that having a bed to put someone in is directly related to staffing across the entire hospital, including diagnostic units?

    Anyway, I'll take it you don't have a better suggestion then.


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    #771
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    corner back 2 wrote: »
    Do people not understand that no matter what time of year it is that if you don't have a bed to put someone into they will remain on a trolley in A/E no matter how few or how many people are on leave. Glad you are ok with 600 on trolleys yesterday but it can get worse at any stage between now and February or march. Leo and his advisors are so far removed from the realities of how hospitals operate at near breaking point 24/7 all year round. Amazing how so many get taken in by Leo's soundbites but as has been said before maybe we get the government we deserve.

    Do people not understand that if you don't have a way of treating and discharging people then you don't have a bed to put someone else into.

    If the relevant staff are on leave, you have bed-blockers. You can live with that in summer months when the demand is low. At peak demand, you need to be treating and discharging patients in the most efficient way.

    The health service gets more than enough money. It needs to be more efficient and more effective. Varadkar has pointed to a key inefficiency at a time of peak demand. Well done to him for being brave enough to call it out.


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    #772
    corner back 2
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭corner back 2


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    Do people not understand that having a bed to put someone in is directly related to staffing across the entire hospital, including diagnostic units?

    Anyway, I'll take it you don't have a better suggestion then.

    Yes I realise that thanks and you do realise that the present number of staff working in hospitals is barely covering the amount of beds that already exist!!! So what do you suggest - blood from a stone maybe. Or maybe Leo can comission another a report? Hospitals need more beds and more staff all year round not just for a few days over Christmas. That is a better solution than blindly agreeing with Leo's soundbite politics.


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    #773
    corner back 2
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭corner back 2


    The health service gets more than enough money. It needs to be more efficient and more effective. Varadkar has pointed to a key inefficiency at a time of peak demand. Well done to him for being brave enough to call it out.[/quote]

    Yes the hse needs to be more efficient but what those who blindly follow Leo like yourself don't understand is that peak demand is now. Maybe I will tell you again but nearly 600 on trolleys yesterday. Is that not peak enough for you or maybe you like Leo prefer to score cheap points against front line staff.


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    #774
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    corner back 2 wrote: »

    Yes the hse needs to be more efficient but what those who blindly follow Leo like yourself don't understand is that peak demand is now. Maybe I will tell you again but nearly 600 on trolleys yesterday. Is that not peak enough for you or maybe you like Leo prefer to score cheap points against front line staff.


    The taxpayer is putting more than enough money into the health system, we are paying world-class prices for a third-world service. That means the problem is within the health system.

    If there isn't enough money to open more beds, that is because money is being wasted elsewhere within the system. It is time for everyone working within the health system to step up and sort this out. The idea that front-line staff are not part of the problem is too simple.


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    #775
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,402 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    corner back 2 wrote: »
    Yes I realise that thanks and you do realise that the present number of staff working in hospitals is barely covering the amount of beds that already exist!!! So what do you suggest - blood from a stone maybe. Or maybe Leo can comission another a report? Hospitals need more beds and more staff all year round not just for a few days over Christmas. That is a better solution than blindly agreeing with Leo's soundbite politics.

    If they are barely covering now, then surely you agree that having 7/12 days under holiday conditions is not going to help?

    I have not argued against either more beds or more staff (pretty sure I explicitly mentioned both). There are also inefficiencies that clearly need to be worked out.

    I'm not blinding agreeing with anything. What I have an issue with is people blinding rushing in to criticise him for literally everything and refusing to acknowledge even a basic undercurrent of a valid point in anything he says. It is tiring.

    Is Leo seriously so ill-informed that he thinks more staff available in hospitals will create less need for trolleys?

    This was the quote that I took initial issue with. It is wrong and remains wrong - having more staff available absolutely will create less need for trolleys. Obviously it will not solve the problem - it is much too deeply ingrained to be solved so easily.


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    #776
    corner back 2
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭corner back 2


    If there isn't enough money to open more beds, that is because money is being wasted elsewhere within the system. It is time for everyone working within the health system to step up and sort this out. The idea that front-line staff are not part of the problem is too simple.[/quote]

    The idea that Christmas annual leave is the problem is far too simple. Front line staff are stepping up every day. As I said previously the crisis is happening now and is not confined to the Christmas period. Leo likes to plant the seed that nurses doctors etc are off sunning themselves while everyone suffers. Yet only the same numbers are allowed to take leave as any other day of the year. But it's easier to blame easy targets.


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    #777
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,402 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    He said part of the problem was that there were 7 "weekend" days in a 12 day period. He did also later mention that for a certain period there should perhaps be less leave taken than during a normal period - this is also on the face of it not necessarily a particularly bad idea. He didn't suggest there was extra or excessive amounts of leave taken at Christmas.

    What he also didn't say was "it's all the doctors fault" - but I suppose people will read into it whatever they want based on their assumption of his motives.


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    #778
    corner back 2
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭corner back 2


    Podge_irl wrote: »
    He said part of the problem was that there were 7 "weekend" days in a 12 day period. He did also later mention that for a certain period there should perhaps be less leave taken than during a normal period - this is also on the face of it not necessarily a particularly bad idea. He didn't suggest there was extra or excessive amounts of leave taken at Christmas.

    What he also didn't say was "it's all the doctors fault" - but I suppose people will read into it whatever they want based on their assumption of his motives.

    What is your assumption of his motives? I am sure he would never try to deflect from the problems at hand by blaming front-line staff. Amazingly I found myself agreeing with Michael Martin on Newstalk this morning!! Leo must be really doing something wrong if that is the case!!!


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    #779
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    corner back 2 wrote: »

    The idea that Christmas annual leave is the problem is far too simple. Front line staff are stepping up every day. As I said previously the crisis is happening now and is not confined to the Christmas period. Leo likes to plant the seed that nurses doctors etc are off sunning themselves while everyone suffers. Yet only the same numbers are allowed to take leave as any other day of the year. But it's easier to blame easy targets.

    That isn't what the Taoiseach said.

    What we are seeing here is the same response as we saw to Peter Casey's remarks. My attention was first drawn to Casey's remarks by the outrage expressed online and in media. I went and read them and saw that there was nothing racist, bigoted, unfair or untrue in what he said, yet people were claiming he said something he didn't.

    We are seeing the same here. The Taoiseach has pointed clearly to an aspect of the HSE's internal workings beyond his control that adds to the problem of the peak demand period. It was fair comment, it isn't untrue, it isn't unfair.

    However, we have seen media reaction and online posting like yours that changes his words into something different. We have seen the traditional "blame it all on Leo" brigade out in force here. Nobody has yet explained to me how it wouldn't help.

    We see it in other parts of the public service. No fireman gets to spend Halloween at home with his family. No teacher or lecturer has a two-week holiday during term-time. There is nothing unusual in the public service about cancelling or refusing leave during particular periods. If the peak months are December/January for the health service, a similar arrangement should be standard practice before we think about putting more money into extra beds.


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    #780
    corner back 2
    Registered Users Posts: 520 ✭✭✭corner back 2


    blanch152 wrote: »
    That isn't what the Taoiseach said.

    What we are seeing here is the same response as we saw to Peter Casey's remarks. My attention was first drawn to Casey's remarks by the outrage expressed online and in media. I went and read them and saw that there was nothing racist, bigoted, unfair or untrue in what he said, yet people were claiming he said something he didn't.

    We are seeing the same here. The Taoiseach has pointed clearly to an aspect of the HSE's internal workings beyond his control that adds to the problem of the peak demand period. It was fair comment, it isn't untrue, it isn't unfair.

    However, we have seen media reaction and online posting like yours that changes his words into something different. We have seen the traditional "blame it all on Leo" brigade out in force here. Nobody has yet explained to me how it wouldn't help.

    We see it in other parts of the public service. No fireman gets to spend Halloween at home with his family. No teacher or lecturer has a two-week holiday during term-time. There is nothing unusual in the public service about cancelling or refusing leave during particular periods. If the peak months are December/January for the health service, a similar arrangement should be standard practice before we think about putting more money into extra beds.

    Amazingly you read Leo's statement word for word and knew exactly what he meant and yet you didnt understand mine. I said Leo "planted the seed" and this exactly what he has done. What you are unwilling to admit is that peak time is here now and needs to be dealt with now. The other fact is that there is no extra leave available over Christmas for nurses and doctors than any other time of the year. The reason there is such disquiet is that people that are on the ground every day know what is happening more than someone making pronouncements from his ivory tower.


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    #781
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    corner back 2 wrote: »
    Amazingly you read Leo's statement word for word and knew exactly what he meant and yet you didnt understand mine. I said Leo "planted the seed" and this exactly what he has done. What you are unwilling to admit is that peak time is here now and needs to be dealt with now. The other fact is that there is no extra leave available over Christmas for nurses and doctors than any other time of the year. The reason there is such disquiet is that people that are on the ground every day know what is happening more than someone making pronouncements from his ivory tower.

    The point is that it isn't any other time of the year. December/January is peak demand. There should be less leave available over that period than any other time of the year.

    Nothing more and nothing less than that, which is a fair statement.


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