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Home charge points (purchase/problems/questions) (See mod note post#1)

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    #302
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,075 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    GaryCocs wrote: »
    Just wondering if you were future proofing, what size cable should you run for these charge points? Thinking five years time maybe a house with two.

    I've just run a 5 core 10 square and I'm wondering if that's enough.

    Depends on the install. i.e. is the cable inside conduit or under insulation etc.

    Two cars charging together at 32A with a long cable run (or inside insulation) should probably have a 10sq cable each but it depends on your particular situation.

    If its easy to pop in another cable I'd do that.


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    #303
    randombar
    Registered Users Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭randombar


    KCross wrote: »
    Depends on the install. i.e. is the cable inside conduit or under insulation etc.

    Two cars charging together at 32A with a long cable run (or inside insulation) should probably have a 10sq cable each but it depends on your particular situation.

    If its easy to pop in another cable I'd do that.

    Cable is running from main fuse board about 5m to the garage to another fuseboard.

    I've put the paving brick back down now on the oath from house to garage. Would be a bit of a dose to run another.

    Crossing a footpath too though so might make the concrete mix weak enough covering the cables down now 😀

    Ah don't have my first EV yet. Let alone my second. I'll probably be able to face taking the brick back up in five years time ðŸ˜


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    #304
    rolion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    What you can do is "use" 2 of 5 for one car/charger, other 2 for second charger and keep the 5th as the earth.
    The core cables are colour marked and is easy to use them, just leave enough cable at the end to fit RCBs.

    I advise to use the shielded metal type insulation, otherwise you may have to run through a metal piping solution. Don't leave them in the concrete...

    PS
    I saw that you haven't ran the cable yet.
    Get two cables 10mm 2 cores with metal shield insulation type.
    Or, a single 10mm 3 core cable and fit a priority switch in the box along with the two chargers.

    Approach a qualified electrician and get the right location.
    Again, leave enough coil for fittings, never ever a cable is too short...


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    #305
    randombar
    Registered Users Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭randombar


    rolion wrote: »
    What you can do is "use" 2 of 5 for one car/charger, other 2 for second charger and keep the 5th as the earth.
    The core cables are colour marked and is easy to use them, just leave enough cable at the end to fit RCBs.

    I advise to use the shielded metal type insulation, otherwise you may have to run through a metal piping solution. Don't leave them in the concrete...

    PS
    I saw that you haven't ran the cable yet.
    Get two cables 10mm 2 cores with metal shield insulation type.
    Or, a single 10mm 3 core cable and fit a priority switch in the box along with the two chargers.

    Approach a qualified electrician and get the right location.
    Again, leave enough coil for fittings, never ever a cable is too short...


    Cable is run all right. By an electrician. The shielded type all right. I was just checking if I needed to run more.

    Thanks for all the advice.


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    #306
    rolion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    GaryCocs wrote: »
    Cable is run all right. By an electrician. The shielded type all right. I was just checking if I needed to run more.

    Thanks for all the advice.

    Great...start saving for the first BEV ! :)
    Good luck.


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    #307
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,878 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    rolion wrote: »
    What you can do is "use" 2 of 5 for one car/charger, other 2 for second charger and keep the 5th as the earth.

    And run 64A through that single cable when the two cars charge at the same time?

    Doesn't sound like a great plan to me. But I'm no qualified electrician. You need to ask one before doing anything like that imho.


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    #308
    rolion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    unkel wrote: »
    And run 64A through that single cable when the two cars charge at the same time?

    Doesn't sound like a great plan to me. But I'm no qualified electrician. You need to ask one before doing anything like that imho.

    You may be right here. Will make two unqualified electricians...

    Afair, when I was doing my home work for cabling, i think a 10 sq mm can run between 60 and 70As based on the installation medium location.
    Never sure until you get a qualified electrician but I guess, i repeat, i guess you can split the cores to get the desired separation probably without damaging the main AC supply quality.

    Worst case scenario, use the three cores for 2 chargers along with a priority switch, fitted at the cabinet side. That's what I done myself.

    good luck.


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    #309
    Zenith74
    Registered Users Posts: 754 ✭✭✭Zenith74


    rolion wrote: »
    Afair, when I was doing my home work for cabling, i think a 10 sq mm can run between 60 and 70As based on the installation medium location.
    Never sure until you get a qualified electrician but I guess, i repeat, i guess you can split the cores to get the desired separation probably without damaging the main AC supply quality.

    Worst case scenario, use the three cores for 2 chargers along with a priority switch, fitted at the cabinet side. That's what I done myself.

    For the sake of the cost of cable (10sq is a couple of Euro per meter right?) it seems like anybody doing work on their house should stick two in, it's never something you'll regret :). Particularly compared to putting in priority switches which are not cheap to buy and may need to be replaced in the lifetime of the house etc.

    Looking at the chart again for cable carrying capacity, if you put a 10sq cable in an insulated stud wall (where it is not touching the wall itself), which is very common in modern houses, its maximum is only 32A.


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    #310
    rolion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    Zenith74 wrote: »
    For the sake of the cost of cable (10sq is a couple of Euro per meter right?) it seems like anybody doing work on their house should stick two in, it's never something you'll regret :). Particularly compared to putting in priority switches which are not cheap to buy and may need to be replaced in the lifetime of the house etc.

    Looking at the chart again for cable carrying capacity, if you put a 10sq cable in an insulated stud wall (where it is not touching the wall itself), which is very common in modern houses, its maximum is only 32A.

    You are right and you showed common sense.
    However...we are not electricians and trying to fix a post installation already laid cable to learn for future installations from past mistakes !?.. :)


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    #311
    daheff
    Registered Users Posts: 5,835 ✭✭✭daheff


    I need to get a charge point installed.

    I dont have power shower (do have a water pump)...have 5 solar panels (no idea what capacity they have). I dont have a diverter for the immersion(but would hope to get one -ideally done at the same time).

    What options would people recommed ?

    As far as i can gather I should get a 32A charger that can load balance (for future proofing) and put in cable for a future second charger unit. Also type 2 untethered?


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    #312
    stimpson
    Registered Users Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭stimpson


    daheff wrote: »
    I need to get a charge point installed.

    I dont have power shower (do have a water pump)...have 5 solar panels (no idea what capacity they have). I dont have a diverter for the immersion(but would hope to get one -ideally done at the same time).

    What options would people recommed ?

    As far as i can gather I should get a 32A charger that can load balance (for future proofing) and put in cable for a future second charger unit.

    Zappi can vary the charging based on solar availability. And will do load balancing.


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    #313
    spakman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,086 ✭✭✭spakman


    daheff wrote: »
    I need to get a charge point installed.

    I dont have power shower (do have a water pump)...have 5 solar panels (no idea what capacity they have). I dont have a diverter for the immersion(but would hope to get one -ideally done at the same time).

    What options would people recommed ?

    As far as i can gather I should get a 32A charger that can load balance (for future proofing) and put in cable for a future second charger unit. Also type 2 untethered?

    I doubt you'll ever need 2 chargers if your next EV will be a newish one. The range of new EVs (like Kona) is >400km so unless you do massive mileage you won't need to charge every night. can take it in turns every second night.


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    #314
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,075 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    daheff wrote: »
    I need to get a charge point installed.

    I dont have power shower (do have a water pump)...have 5 solar panels (no idea what capacity they have). I dont have a diverter for the immersion(but would hope to get one -ideally done at the same time).

    Water diverters generally dont pay for themselves. It will cost, possibly, €400+ and you will "never" save that amount on hot water. Do the math on it before you get a water diverter.

    daheff wrote: »
    As far as i can gather I should get a 32A charger that can load balance (for future proofing) and put in cable for a future second charger unit. Also type 2 untethered?

    Do you have an EV? If its a Type 2 car then I'd just buy a tethered type 2 as every new car will have that socket going forward.

    The only reason to go untethered is if you are planning on buying a type 1 car (<2018 Leaf primarily).

    spakman wrote: »
    I doubt you'll ever need 2 chargers if your next EV will be a newish one. The range of new EVs (like Kona) is >400km so unless you do massive mileage you won't need to charge every night. can take it in turns every second night.

    I think you've assumed that the long range Kona will be the norm. It wont, at least for a long time yet anyway. And those long range cars are going to be expensive for a long time to come as well.

    In the medium term manufacturers are going to provide multiple range versions of their cars... short and long
    e.g. Leaf , Niro and Kona are all supposed to have 40kWh and 64kWh versions. You pick the one you need and/or can afford.

    If putting in one wire for a charge point its just as easy to put in two and leave the second one unconnected as a future proof as the cable is the hard bit.

    You also have to think about the potential for one or more of your kids having a EV. Some houses could, in future, have 3 or 4 EV's that need to be charged 2 or 3 times a week. Having two chargers (or the wiring for it) is a good idea.


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    #315
    daheff
    Registered Users Posts: 5,835 ✭✭✭daheff


    KCross wrote: »
    Water diverters generally dont pay for themselves. It will cost, possibly, €400+ and you will "never" save that amount on hot water. Do the math on it before you get a water diverter.
    Yeah thats what i'm thinking...but part of me thinks that energy prices will rise over time and it'll eventually pay for itself. And as I have somebody in to do some work, why not get it done at the same time.

    Assuming its costing <700EUR

    KCross wrote: »
    Do you have an EV? If its a Type 2 car then I'd just buy a tethered type 2 as every new car will have that socket going forward.

    The only reason to go untethered is if you are planning on buying a type 1 car (<2018 Leaf primarily).
    Due to receive a Niro PHEV this month. Thinking untethered because
    -A don't want kids (or any other 'visitor') messing with the cable
    -B theres no set standard charge type, leave me the option to use any type in the future.

    KCross wrote: »

    If putting in one wire for a charge point its just as easy to put in two and leave the second one unconnected as a future proof as the cable is the hard bit.
    Thats what I'm thinking. Adding the second cable shouldn't cost much to do at the time?


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    #316
    daheff
    Registered Users Posts: 5,835 ✭✭✭daheff


    stimpson wrote: »
    Zappi can vary the charging based on solar availability. And will do load balancing.

    Stupid question, but if the Zappi is just connected to the fuse box, how does it know what solar is producing?


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    #317
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,075 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    daheff wrote: »
    Yeah thats what i'm thinking...but part of me thinks that energy prices will rise over time and it'll eventually pay for itself. And as I have somebody in to do some work, why not get it done at the same time.

    Assuming its costing <700EUR

    Eventually!
    It depends on how you heat hot water today.
    You need to calculate how much its costing to heat water right now and then see how long it takes to break even based on the diverter cost and see if thats a timeframe you are comfortable with. You could find its 20yrs+. For me, thats not money well spent.
    daheff wrote: »
    Due to receive a Niro PHEV this month. Thinking untethered because
    -A don't want kids (or any other 'visitor') messing with the cable
    -B theres no set standard charge type, leave me the option to use any type in the future.

    A - There isnt really any messing. Its a plug like your kettle. You plug it in and out. Not much to mess with.

    B - All cars will be type 2 going forward and that is a standard. So if your first EV is a type 2, which it is, then I think you should go with a tethered type 2.

    The only good reason I can think of to go untethered in your situation is if you think you will have someone with an old gen EV that has a type 1 socket and regularly needs to charge at your house. You are not really future proofing it by leaving it untethered when your first car is a type 2, imo.

    Plugging a cable in/out each day is a much bigger inconvenience.

    daheff wrote: »
    Stupid question, but if the Zappi is just connected to the fuse box, how does it know what solar is producing?

    You put a clamp on the incoming mains and Solar and the Zappi monitors those.


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    #318
    daheff
    Registered Users Posts: 5,835 ✭✭✭daheff


    KCross wrote: »
    Eventually!


    A - There isnt really any messing. Its a plug like your kettle. You plug it in and out. Not much to mess with.

    Looking at pictures online of Zappis, if it were a retractable cable (rather than one thats just wrapped around the unit) I think I wouldn't have too much issues with a tethered unit. And i think a unit without a cable looks 'cleaner & tidier'


    In anycase...my kids will find a way to mess with it!:cool:



    thanks!
    KCross wrote: »
    It depends on how you heat hot water today.
    You need to calculate how much its costing to heat water right now and then see how long it takes to break even based on the diverter cost and see if thats a timeframe you are comfortable with. You could find its 20yrs+. For me, thats not money well spent.
    This is the part i'm having trouble with. Cant quite quantify how much we are using/cost right now.

    Also get that the return could be 20+, but I'm hoping to live a bit longer than that!! 20 year payback is still a 5% ROI...Struggling to get that on deposits right now!


  • Options
    #319
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,075 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    daheff wrote: »
    Looking at pictures online of Zappis, if it were a retractable cable (rather than one thats just wrapped around the unit) I think I wouldn't have too much issues with a tethered unit. And i think a unit without a cable looks 'cleaner & tidier'

    For sure an untethered is tidier but balance that with the hassle of taking the cable in and out of your boot everyday particularly in winter when its raining and all you want to do is get the shopping in out of the boot.... getting a cable out of its bag and plugged in on both ends will get tired very quick.

    And worse, in the morning having to take a wet cable and wind it up into a bag and put it in your boot... not for me anyway but each to their own! :)

    There are EVSE's with hidden tethered cables but they are expensive and dont have all the features of a Zappi....
    https://andersen-ev.com/andersen-a2/

    daheff wrote: »
    This is the part i'm having trouble with. Cant quite quantify how much we are using/cost right now.

    Also get that the return could be 20+, but I'm hoping to live a bit longer than that!! 20 year payback is still a 5% ROI...Struggling to get that on deposits right now!

    I pulled 20 years out of my a*se. It could be twice or half that or anything really... as I said it depends on how you heat hot water and how much you use.

    You dont have to get an exact figure. With some basic stats you can get a rough estimate.
    What size is your cylinder?
    How many people in the house?
    Do they like long showers?
    What rate (litre/min) does your water pump for your showers run at?
    How do you heat the water today? Mains gas, electric immersion etc?


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    #320
    daheff
    Registered Users Posts: 5,835 ✭✭✭daheff


    KCross wrote: »
    getting a cable out of its bag and plugged in on both ends will get tired very quick.

    And worse, in the morning having to take a wet cable and wind it up into a bag and put it in your boot... not for me anyway but each to their own! :)
    You make good points. But wouldnt there be an issue with wet 'points' on a tethered (exposed) cable?
    KCross wrote: »
    There are EVSE's with hidden tethered cables but they are expensive and dont have all the features of a Zappi....
    https://andersen-ev.com/andersen-a2/
    These look quite nice! Could be a sideline in developing a nice box to go around peoples chargers!

    KCross wrote: »
    I pulled 20 years out of my a*se. It could be twice or half that or anything really... as I said it depends on how you heat hot water and how much you use.

    You dont have to get an exact figure. With some basic stats you can get a rough estimate.
    What size is your cylinder?
    How many people in the house?
    Do they like long showers?
    What rate (litre/min) does your water pump for your showers run at?
    How do you heat the water today? Mains gas, electric immersion etc?

    I get 20 years is a out of the sky figure.

    House is a couple of years old, so cylinder is the big new (210L I guess)
    4 people in the house
    Little people like shorter showers...but average 5 mins
    Water pump is 3bar...but no idea on flow rate.
    Water is currently heated by mains gas (winter) and electric immersion. Summer time I try to put on immersion when its nice & sunny & not much load on the house.


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    #321
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,878 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    I'm with all the points KCross made above, but there are a few more variables that come into play. How big is your solar array if you have one already? And if you don't have one, what size are you going to install anyway (regardless of the decision on immersion diversion)?


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    #322
    stimpson
    Registered Users Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭stimpson


    daheff wrote: »
    Stupid question, but if the Zappi is just connected to the fuse box, how does it know what solar is producing?

    There is an inductive clamp that clips onto the cable coming from the solar inverter, so Zappi knows how much is being produced. You then have 3 different modes that tell it how to work - Fast charge regardless of solar produciton, minimum 1.4 kW (or more if solar is available), or min 1.4kW if a set % of solar is available.

    Similarly, there is a clamp on the supply between the meter and fusebox so it knows how much the house is drawing. You set a limit based on your fuse (63A usually) and if the total load on the house exceeds this then Zappi will reduce your charging rate.


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    #323
    daheff
    Registered Users Posts: 5,835 ✭✭✭daheff


    unkel wrote: »
    I'm with all the points KCross made above, but there are a few more variables that come into play. How big is your solar array if you have one already? And if you don't have one, what size are you going to install anyway (regardless of the decision on immersion diversion)?

    So we bought a new house a couple of years ago. There were 5 solar panels already installed. I’m guessing(!) these are 1.6kW each, so 8kW.

    they look to be (but might not be)Joule Navitas panels they arent!


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    #324
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,878 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    I think you're mixing a few things up there, daheff. The panels in your link are solar thermal panels (for heating your water), not solar PV (for generating electricity). Is there anyway to find out what you really have? Must be in your documents about your house somewhere.


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    #325
    daheff
    Registered Users Posts: 5,835 ✭✭✭daheff


    unkel wrote: »
    I think you're mixing a few things up there, daheff. The panels in your link are solar thermal panels (for heating your water), not solar PV (for generating electricity). Is there anyway to find out what you really have? Must be in your documents about your house somewhere.

    I need to double check the documentation at home, but they are definitely PV panels. I'll look later tonight and see what i can find.


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    #326
    rolion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    I'm on the market for the second charger ..AND ...despite few non-interested users here made great recomendations about the Zappi and the so blessed magic PV integration...i am really curios to see a graph or a report or a bill or something that shows how they work and, whats the outcome...

    Anyone !??


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    #327
    stimpson
    Registered Users Posts: 7,815 ✭✭✭stimpson


    rolion wrote: »
    I'm on the market for the second charger ..AND ...despite few non-interested users here made great recomendations about the Zappi and the so blessed magic PV integration...i am really curios to see a graph or a report or a bill or something that shows how they work and, whats the outcome...

    Anyone !??

    I bought it with one eye on PV, but I’m waiting to gather more data. I suspect that night rate electricity will make the payback time for PV too long.


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    #328
    rolion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,362 ✭✭✭rolion


    Thanks.. but night time and PVs kind of cancels the benefits of the well known integration of Zappi,isnt ?
    And you are right with night time rate...changed my supplier and paying now .8c per unit...but the €340 charge to chaneg the meter, kind of extended the payback...


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    #329
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    rolion wrote: »
    but the €340 charge to chaneg the meter, kind of extended the payback...
    I was under the impression that getting a night rate meter in was free, at least if its the first time the installation is modified, a colleague just did it. Had you previously got one removed?


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    #330
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,075 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    rolion wrote: »
    Thanks.. but night time and PVs kind of cancels the benefits of the well known integration of Zappi,isnt ?
    And you are right with night time rate...changed my supplier and paying now .8c per unit...but the €340 charge to chaneg the meter, kind of extended the payback...

    I presume you mean the import/export meter for SolarPV because switching to a day/night meter is free.... just in case you scare everyone off switching to day/night metering.


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    #331
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,075 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    rolion wrote: »
    I'm on the market for the second charger ..AND ...despite few non-interested users here made great recomendations about the Zappi and the so blessed magic PV integration...i am really curios to see a graph or a report or a bill or something that shows how they work and, whats the outcome...

    Anyone !??

    What exactly do you want/need to know?
    There isnt any rocket science in them.

    How much you get out of the Solar integration will be very much dependent on you and your circumstances so not sure what graphs you need to see. Your question isnt very clear.


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