Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

noodler · 31-01-2019 1:45pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

yet another 'buzz word', which translates as, increasing productivity, while reducing costs, in particular, maintaining relatively low wage inflation, while the cost of living continues to increase.

Pretty sure it means having more services in a single hospital.

31-01-2019 1:47pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

yet another 'buzz word', which translates as, increasing productivity, while reducing costs, in particular, maintaining relatively low wage inflation, while the cost of living continues to increase.

Yes, that would be disgraceful. Imagine cutting costs and increasing productivity in the health service. Next thing they will be suggesting is re-investing the money to improve services and outcomes !

Wanderer78 · 31-01-2019 1:53pm

1641 wrote: »

Yes, that would be disgraceful. Imagine cutting costs and increasing productivity in the health service. Next thing they will be suggesting is re-investing the money to improve services and outcomes !

theres plenty of evidence to support productivity has increased across most sectors but wage share increases have been poor in response to this increase

hatrickpatrick · 31-01-2019 2:38pm

1641 wrote: »

Yes, that would be disgraceful. Imagine cutting costs and increasing productivity in the health service. Next thing they will be suggesting is re-investing the money to improve services and outcomes !

If "increased productivity and lower costs" translates to "asking people to work harder for the same or less pay", which it often does, it is disgraceful. Actually that's pretty much what's been going on for the last few decades as wages have stagnated across the West while productivity has increased.

salonfire · 31-01-2019 2:41pm

Martina1991 wrote: »

So what will we do if nurses do get the 12% pay increase across the board and young nurses continue to travel and emigrate anyway?

Going by the logic of the unions, give them another €300m of course

Wanderer78 · 31-01-2019 2:44pm

salonfire wrote: »

Going by the logic of the unions, give them another €300m of course

300 million for the staff, but the cost of the childrens hospital is up to 2 billion, yet some seemed to be more outraged by the 300 million!

Topgear on Dave · 31-01-2019 2:47pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

300 million for the staff, but the cost of the childrens hospital is up to 2 billion, yet some seemed to be more outraged by the 300 million!

Iv heard no one delighted over that either. It's woeful project management.

salonfire · 31-01-2019 2:47pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

300 million for the staff, but the cost of the childrens hospital is up to 2 billion, yet some seemed to be more outraged by the 300 million!

The hospital when built will last 100 years.

7 years from now, this pay rise will be greater than the cost of the hospital and will continue to be more expensive than it for each year after that.

Wanderer78 · 31-01-2019 2:47pm

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Iv heard no one delighted over that either. It's woeful project management.

its fcuking disturbing

Wanderer78 · 31-01-2019 2:49pm

salonfire wrote: »

The hospital when built will last 100 years.

7 years from now, this pay rise will be greater than the cost of the hospital and will continue to be more expensive than it for each year after that.

so we should continue with our current approach of wage suppression, while the cost of living continues to rise?

31-01-2019 2:54pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

so we should continue with our current approach of wage suppression, while the cost of living continues to rise?

Wage increases will likely increase the cost of living.

Wanderer78 · 31-01-2019 2:55pm

Augeo wrote: »

Wage increases will likely increase the cost of living.

just as much as the polices implemented to raise asset prices?

salonfire · 31-01-2019 2:55pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

so we should continue with our current approach of wage suppression, while the cost of living continues to rise?

Did you miss the pay rises already scheduled?

On top of reductions on their pension contributions and increase to their pension contributions thresholds.

All of which leaves more money in their pockets.

31-01-2019 2:59pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

just as much as the polices implemented to raise asset prices?

I'm not at all sure to be honest.
I wouldn't have the knowledge of the figures, how much are the policies implemented to raise asset prices increasing the cost of living?
What are these policies too that you are referring to? I'm not familiar with them at all.

31-01-2019 3:03pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

If "increased productivity and lower costs" translates to "asking people to work harder for the same or less pay", which it often does, it is disgraceful. Actually that's pretty much what's been going on for the last few decades as wages have stagnated across the West while productivity has increased.

No, I think people generally work hard but often inefficiently or ineffectively.

The Health Service is full of vested interest who support change in theory but oppose it in practice. Each union (not confined to Nursing by any means) is out for its own members (how can we benefit from this and avoid any inconvenience for our own?). In the past, groups have pocketed any increase going while being obstructive to change in practice.

The total amount of money we pour into our Health Service relative to the quality of service delivered is a disgrace - any, with an aging population in the years ahead, unsustainable.

Radical reform should come first - then by all means look at wages, salaries and allowances.

Wanderer78 · 31-01-2019 3:04pm

Augeo wrote: »

I'm not at all sure to be honest.
I wouldn't have the knowledge of the figures, how much are the policies implemented to raise asset prices increasing the cost of living?
What are these policies too that you are referring to? I'm not familiar with them at all.

its becoming clearly obvious, over the last couple of decades, it has been favorable to implement polices that have caused, and continue to cause, asset price inflation, in particular housing, but not so favorable to implement policies to create wage inflation, i.e. rising costs of housing is good, along with relatively low wage inflation. thankfully the wealth created has 'trickled down'!:rolleyes:

hatrickpatrick · 31-01-2019 3:05pm

Augeo wrote: »

Wage increases will likely increase the cost of living.

So what's your solution to increase individual purchasing power then? That's all a pay rise is about. How would you reduce the cost of living, policy-wise, without cutting pay?

31-01-2019 3:20pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

its becoming clearly obvious, over the last couple of decades, it has been favorable to implement polices that have caused, and continue to cause, asset price inflation, in particular housing, but not so favorable to implement policies to create wage inflation, i.e. rising costs of housing is good, along with relatively low wage inflation. thankfully the wealth created has 'trickled down'!:rolleyes:

What happened in 2008 so? Again, what policies were implemented, detail them if they exist.
You love the trickle down quip. SW increases etc and thousands receiving HAP etc is actually trickle down ....... folks getting plenty for doing SFA.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

So what's your solution to increase individual purchasing power then? That's all a pay rise is about. How would you reduce the cost of living, policy-wise, without cutting pay?

Do we need to increase individual purchasing power?
In the case of the nurses that's already in hand, there's an agreement in place iirc.

Wanderer78 · 31-01-2019 3:25pm

Augeo wrote: »

What happened in 2008 so?

a crash that was caused by dangerous polices, effectively allowing banks to print as much money as possible in the form of credit, dramatically causing the rapid rise of assets, in particular housing, ultimately showing, project 'asset price inflation' as a serious fcuk up, of which hasnt been resolved, but shur you know all this, you re not stupid

Wanderer78 · 31-01-2019 3:26pm

Augeo wrote: »

What happened in 2008 so? Again, what policies were implemented, detail them if they exist.
You love the trickle down quip. SW increases etc and thousands receiving HAP etc is actually trickle down ....... folks getting plenty for doing SFA.

Do we need to increase individual purchasing power?
In the case of the nurses that's already in hand, there's an agreement in place iirc.

and you love all that free market, libertarian nonsense

Twenty Grand · 31-01-2019 3:28pm

salonfire wrote: »

The hospital when built will last 100 years.

7 years from now, this pay rise will be greater than the cost of the hospital and will continue to be more expensive than it for each year after that.

So it's an empty building that'll be left to rot?

Or is it a busting building that will cost 10s of millions per year to heat and keep running?

Topgear on Dave · 31-01-2019 3:31pm

Twenty Grand wrote: »

So it's an empty building that'll be left to rot?

Or is it a busting building that will cost 10s of millions per year to heat and keep running?

Those millions per year are current expenditure already being spent trying to keep the old knackered children's hospitals running.

The new one should hopefully be more efficient.

31-01-2019 3:34pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

and you love all that free market, libertarian nonsense

Paying your way I like to think of it as

salonfire · 31-01-2019 3:36pm

Twenty Grand wrote: »

So it's an empty building that'll be left to rot?

Or is it a busting building that will cost 10s of millions per year to heat and keep running?

The 2 billion referred to that we are supposed to be outraged about is the build project.

Pay rises will surpass that amount and more after just 7 years.

hatrickpatrick · 31-01-2019 3:38pm

Augeo wrote: »

Do we need to increase individual purchasing power?

Of course we do. Most of the social and industrial unrest taking place not only in Ireland, but across the world in recent years has been the result of wages not keeping place with price inflation in the decades since the post-war consensus was substituted for neoliberalism. The cost of living has increased faster than average wages, resulting in a declining quality of life. Maximising quality of life across the board for this and future generations should be the first priority of a democratic government, therefore policy-wise, either wages need to increase or the cost of living needs to decrease.

Or should people just accept declining quality of life over time?

31-01-2019 3:42pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Not at all, This isn't about gross pay in one sector, it's about a combination of take-home pay being hit by a very unprogressive taxation system

IT seems there must be another Ireland in a different solar system. For those with an address in Ireland, The Earth, we have a comparatively very progressive tax system.Summary of OECD report here:

http://www.publicpolicy.ie/ireland-has-the-most-progressive-income-tax-system-in-the-eu-2/

salonfire · 31-01-2019 3:44pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Of course we do. Most of the social and industrial unrest taking place not only in Ireland, but across the world in recent years has been the result of wages not keeping place with price inflation in the decades since the post-war consensus was substituted for neoliberalism. The cost of living has increased faster than average wages, resulting in a declining quality of life. Maximising quality of life across the board for this and future generations should be the first priority of a democratic government, therefore policy-wise, either wages need to increase or the cost of living needs to decrease.

Or should people just accept declining quality of life over time?

So your saying those living in low cost rural areas should get less.

I agree.

Any pay increase should be targeted to those in large urban areas ie Dublin.

mariaalice · 31-01-2019 3:47pm

salonfire wrote: »

The 2 billion referred to that we are supposed to be outraged about is the build project.

Pay rises will surpass that amount and more after just 7 years.

This might be an eccentric view, but maybe it's not incompetence but the extream complexity of modern very large infrastructure projects combined with the moving target of modern technology and IT .i.e its almost out of date by the time it is commissioned for use, its those issues that are causing the massive overspend.

The complexity has become beyond human capabilities at this moment in time.

crusier · 31-01-2019 3:48pm

I begrudge others a pay rise even if they deserve it because I hate what I'm doing and I don't want anyone else to be rewarded for professional work in a life saving profession. Most of them are in a career they sought and that should be enough for them. Most are Women also so they are not equal. I'm Irish and I'm bitter, but I demand perfect treatment when I go to hospital, I am pathetic

hatrickpatrick · 31-01-2019 3:49pm

salonfire wrote: »

So your saying those living in low cost rural areas should get less.

I agree.

Any pay increase should be targeted to those in large urban areas ie Dublin.

I don't know the ins and outs of how much the cost of living differs in urban vs rural areas, having not lived in the latter myself, but if there's a huge difference, it could make sense to introduce allowances for those living in higher cost areas, such as the London Allowance afforded to British public servants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_weighting

But the rural / urban divide in terms of the cost of living is still set against the backdrop of a general decline in the wage : living cost ratio since the 1970s, and this is something which needs to be addressed as the national level.

I've been saying this for a long time, but I do think it's only a matter of time before we have to factor overpopulation into the equation. The planet has more and more people competing for fixed resources, this is a situation which cannot be sustained without plunging quality of life.

Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

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