Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

4068ac1elhodqr · 07-02-2019 4:29pm

J Mysterio wrote: »

Fuçkin cheek!! We're already at risk of an attack at Sellafield and now they want to dump their nuclear waste on our island? I would definitely protest this, in person, and I have only once ever attended a rally or protest (solidarity march in Limerick for Collins family).

The idea of a dumping ground for England's nuclear waste in the Mournes or Newry, was already rejected unanimously by all cross-party folks at a council meeting, by all colours green, blue, yellow and orange, so would have zero feasability.

Besides there is always great demand for fresh digging machinery parts up on ebay.

If they had anysense would have just choosen Scotland, as it's more likely to leave their union 1st, as soon as the brexit catastrophe is over.

c.p.w.g.w · 07-02-2019 4:40pm

briany wrote: »

I wouldn't push too hard for a referendum in the immediate event of no-deal if I were Sinn Fein. I think the political atmosphere would be too charged at that time, and if a no-deal had the kind of detrimental effects that are being predicted, those would need some time to be seen, felt and sink in and allow pragmatic Unionism to consider that their future was indeed better in a UI that's part of the EU.

Would border poll consist of all 32 counties or just the 6 in Norn Ireland?

Hurrache · 07-02-2019 4:41pm

Bwah ha ha, Brexit campaigner getting angry because of the results of Brexit.
https://twitter.com/SuzanneEvans1/status/1093061819541979136

c.p.w.g.w · 07-02-2019 4:43pm

Hurrache wrote: »

Bwah ha ha, Brexiteer getting angry because of the results of Brexit.
https://twitter.com/SuzanneEvans1/status/1093061819541979136

"Eating your cake and having it too" comes to mind

Christy42 · 07-02-2019 4:48pm

Hurrache wrote: »

Bwah ha ha, Brexit campaigner getting angry because of the results of Brexit.
https://twitter.com/SuzanneEvans1/status/1093061819541979136

The comments are brilliant. Gets completely destroyed.

Going to be annoying if charges do come back. My phone has a habit of forgetting which country I am in when I am near the border.

briany · 07-02-2019 4:53pm

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Would border poll consist of all 32 counties or just the 6 in Norn Ireland?

As I understand it, there would be two referendums on unification - one in NI and one in RoI. Both would have to pass in order for unification to take place. I'm not sure off the top of my head if the referendums would take place simulataneously, or if one would trigger the other, though.

First Up · 07-02-2019 5:00pm

briany wrote:

As I understand it, there would be two referendums on unification - one in NI and one in RoI. Both would have to pass in order for unification to take place. I'm not sure off the top of my head if the referendums would take place simulataneously, or if one would trigger the other, though.

Might not be all they trigger.

breatheme · 07-02-2019 5:06pm

briany wrote: »

As I understand it, there would be two referendums on unification - one in NI and one in RoI. Both would have to pass in order for unification to take place. I'm not sure off the top of my head if the referendums would take place simulataneously, or if one would trigger the other, though.

The GFA says nothing about the referenda being simultaneous, and it makes sense for them to happen consequently: The first one in Northern Ireland and the second one, if the first one passes, in the rest of Ireland.

IMO (and maybe if we continue having this conversation we should take it to another thread) it should happen like this:

1. Referendum in NI.
2. IF it passes, negotiations between the governments of Ireland and the UK to determine the terms of reunification. Stormont can have a say as well. (This is important, because then the rest of Ireland can vote on a concrete reunification rather than an abstract one.)
3. Referendum in the rest of Ireland.

briany · 07-02-2019 5:41pm

breatheme wrote: »

The GFA says nothing about the referenda being simultaneous, and it makes sense for them to happen consequently: The first one in Northern Ireland and the second one, if the first one passes, in the rest of Ireland.

IMO (and maybe if we continue having this conversation we should take it to another thread) it should happen like this:

1. Referendum in NI.
2. IF it passes, negotiations between the governments of Ireland and the UK to determine the terms of reunification. Stormont can have a say as well. (This is important, because then the rest of Ireland can vote on a concrete reunification rather than an abstract one.)
3. Referendum in the rest of Ireland.

What would happen if a UI were to pass seems a bit of an unknown. Presumably, Unionists would want a say in what this new Ireland would look like, and I presume there would be talks to that end. They'd be up in arms (literally) otherwise. And, in fact, the other provinces would probably get in on that action to some extent because it would be the best chance in a lifetime to get powers (and money) shifted away from Dublin and into some kind of federal structure.

prawnsambo · 07-02-2019 5:44pm

briany wrote: »

What would happen if a UI were to pass seems a bit of an unknown. Presumably, Unionists would want a say in what this new Ireland would look like, and I presume there would be talks to that end. They'd be up in arms (literally) otherwise. And, in fact, the other provinces would probably get in on that action to some extent because it would be the best chance in a lifetime to get powers (and money) shifted away from Dublin and into some kind of federal structure.

Represented by whom?

Dytalus · 07-02-2019 5:45pm

breatheme wrote: »

The GFA says nothing about the referenda being simultaneous, and it makes sense for them to happen consequently: The first one in Northern Ireland and the second one, if the first one passes, in the rest of Ireland.

IMO (and maybe if we continue having this conversation we should take it to another thread) it should happen like this:

1. Referendum in NI.
2. IF it passes, negotiations between the governments of Ireland and the UK to determine the terms of reunification. Stormont can have a say as well. (This is important, because then the rest of Ireland can vote on a concrete reunification rather than an abstract one.)
3. Referendum in the rest of Ireland.

Ideally the discussions on how it would come about would happen before the referendum in NI.

Look at the chaos in Parliament and all that's happened post-Brexit because the people voted on a simple binary, when the possible options for Leave were numerous. Nobody knew exactly what "leave" meant when they voted.

I should think we'd want to avoid the same with a border poll, especially with the history of tensions and violence in the region. There are people both sides of the border who have misgivings about reunification. If Brexit leads towards UI, then citizens of both countries should know what they're getting into prior to any vote.

Seth Brundle · 07-02-2019 5:47pm

em, I can't really say much about this...

https://twitter.com/BelTel/status/1093514058647683072

Imreoir2 · 07-02-2019 5:48pm

briany wrote: »

What would happen if a UI were to pass seems a bit of an unknown. Presumably, Unionists would want a say in what this new Ireland would look like, and I presume there would be talks to that end. They'd be up in arms (literally) otherwise. And, in fact, the other provinces would probably get in on that action to some extent because it would be the best chance in a lifetime to get powers (and money) shifted away from Dublin and into some kind of federal structure.

It's very unlikely that there would be a federalised Ireland after unification. Ireland has a very centralised political system and that is unlikely to change. The likely outcome is that things would remain very much as they are with NI comming under Dáil Éireann juristiction istead of Westminster. Devolution would continue in NI and the rest of Ireland would continue much as it has been. People don't like to consider that Unification will result in more of the same in a great many areas, but the likelyhood is that this will happen to minmise disruption and opposition.

prawnsambo · 07-02-2019 5:49pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

em, I can't really say much about this...

https://twitter.com/BelTel/status/1093514058647683072

It's the logical conclusion to paying for brexit ads in the London Metro. And of course they practically live there now that they're 'in government'.

bilston · 07-02-2019 5:51pm

Hurrache wrote: »

Bwah ha ha, Brexit campaigner getting angry because of the results of Brexit.
https://twitter.com/SuzanneEvans1/status/1093061819541979136

That is as funny as it is sad.

Maybe Brexiteers really haven't been listening at any point over the last three years. Only when they start to reap what they have religiously sowed over the last few years will it occur to them that maybe they should have listened to the experts in their particular fields of interest rather than those who just sold a rather vague idea about taking back control, which sounded good at the time but in fact in the real world meant absolutely nothing whatsoever.

prawnsambo · 07-02-2019 5:57pm

bilston wrote: »

That is as funny as it is sad.

Maybe Brexiteers really haven't been listening at any point over the last three years. Only when they start to reap what they have religiously sowed over the last few years will it occur to them that maybe they should have listened to the experts in their particular fields of interest rather than those who just sold a rather vague idea about taking back control, which sounded good at the time but in fact in the real world meant absolutely nothing whatsoever.

Oh I don't think she's in that camp. In fact she's doubling down on it.

Nothing to do with brexit, just business taking the opportunity presented by brexit because brexit means taking back control and not having to take rules from unelected... Oh...

bilston · 07-02-2019 5:57pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

em, I can't really say much about this...

https://twitter.com/BelTel/status/1093514058647683072

I just hope they are decimated at the next election.

Of course they won't be. In fact, because SF are raising the prospect of a border poll it is almost inevitable that the DUP will get more support at the next election. But they represent no one. They certainly don't represent the Nationalist community in Northern Ireland, they don't represent the business community in Northern Ireland, irrespective of where those business leaders sit on the constitutional spectrum, they don't represent the liberal Unionist (mainly middle class and living in Greater Belfast), and while they get votes from working class Unionists they really don't look after their interests. Brexit being the obvious example.

prawnsambo · 07-02-2019 6:01pm

bilston wrote: »

I just hope they are decimated at the next election.

Of course they won't be. In fact, because SF are raising the prospect of a border poll it is almost inevitable that the DUP will get more support at the next election. But they represent no one. They certainly don't represent the Nationalist community in Northern Ireland, they don't represent the business community in Northern Ireland, irrespective of where those business leaders sit on the constitutional spectrum, they don't represent the liberal Unionist (mainly middle class and living in Greater Belfast), and while they get votes from working class Unionists they really don't look after their interests. Brexit being the obvious example.

I thought the UUP were making a bit of ground, but not sure how they would fare overall. They lost one sane voice in Sylvia Hermon who I presume is safe. What about Alliance?

lawred2 · 07-02-2019 6:03pm

bilston wrote: »

I just hope they are decimated at the next election.

Of course they won't be. In fact, because SF are raising the prospect of a border poll it is almost inevitable that the DUP will get more support at the next election. But they represent no one. They certainly don't represent the Nationalist community in Northern Ireland, they don't represent the business community in Northern Ireland, irrespective of where those business leaders sit on the constitutional spectrum, they don't represent the liberal Unionist (mainly middle class and living in Greater Belfast), and while they get votes from working class Unionists they really don't look after their interests. Brexit being the obvious example.

They won't be. They are not taigs.

Imreoir2 · 07-02-2019 6:03pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

I thought the UUP were making a bit of ground, but not sure how they would fare overall. They lost one sane voice in Sylvia Hermon who I presume is safe. What about Alliance?

You are talking about NI here, if the DUP were to lose ground to anyone it would be the TUV.

MrMusician18 · 07-02-2019 6:07pm

bilston wrote: »

I just hope they are decimated at the next election.

Of course they won't be. In fact, because SF are raising the prospect of a border poll it is almost inevitable that the DUP will get more support at the next election. But they represent no one. They certainly don't represent the Nationalist community in Northern Ireland, they don't represent the business community in Northern Ireland, irrespective of where those business leaders sit on the constitutional spectrum, they don't represent the liberal Unionist (mainly middle class and living in Greater Belfast), and while they get votes from working class Unionists they really don't look after their interests. Brexit being the obvious example.

They won't be decimated. We seem to forget that 44% in NI took their lead and voted for Brexit.

c.p.w.g.w · 07-02-2019 6:30pm

Guardian reporting that EU willing to reopen talks?

But article isn't very clear, seems to suggest the talks are about both the WA & trade talks post brexit.

Maybe I need to reread it, when I'm finished work

Hurrache · 07-02-2019 6:41pm

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Guardian reporting that EU willing to reopen talks?

But article isn't very clear, seems to suggest the talks are about both the WA & trade talks post brexit.

Maybe I need to reread it, when I'm finished work

Talks, but not the WA or backstop.

CelticRambler · 07-02-2019 6:45pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

But presumably the night before you go to Argentina you'll have to double check that the rules haven't changed and that there's no hidden charges beneath the headline zero figure. And the people you travel with may be with a different provider (or have a different deal with the same provider) and not get the same zero roaming fees so won't be able to contact you.

But all of that is/would be a commercial decision to be made by the operator. Yes, my provider might decide on a whim to suddenly cut my calls or data allowance (even while I'm travelling around the EU) but probably won't because that would piss me off and encourage me to change to an alternative provider. It's the same with this story: the EU's consumer protection lapses on the 29th March, but that doesn't mean that roaming charges will, inevitably, appear on bills from the 30th.

In the event of no-deal, we're going to see a lot more of this as some companies decide to take advantage of gaps in consumer protection legislation, but it'll creep in slowly over months, not with a bang the day after Brexit. And even if it's slipped into updated T&Cs, it'll take longer for people to end up in a situation where they actually notice what they've lost. That's why I'd treat these headlines as Project Fear.

10000maniacs · 07-02-2019 7:02pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Oh I don't think she's in that camp. In fact she's doubling down on it.

Nothing to do with brexit, just business taking the opportunity presented by brexit because brexit means taking back control and not having to take rules from unelected... Oh...

Roaming charges will be the least of her problems if there is a hard exit. These Brexiters need to take responsibility for their actions. It's all on them.

Strazdas · 07-02-2019 7:03pm

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Guardian reporting that EU willing to reopen talks?

But article isn't very clear, seems to suggest the talks are about both the WA & trade talks post brexit.

Maybe I need to reread it, when I'm finished work

Not much seems to be happening according to Donald Tusk

https://twitter.com/eucopresident/status/1093535048454860800

J Mysterio · 07-02-2019 7:06pm

May looks very strained there. Tusk not looking too happy.

tuxy · 07-02-2019 7:08pm

Could they not do this on the phone and then have formal in person meetings once there was at least a hint that there might be progress.

What a waste of time.

briany · 07-02-2019 7:12pm

tuxy wrote: »

Could they not do this on the phone and then have formal in person meetings once there was at least a hint that there might be progress.

What a waste of time.

I wonder if the actual physical act of heading over there is not just for show. I mean Number 10 must have a decent Internet connection. They could have dealings over Skype.

Although they want May there in person just they can make sure she hasn't got her fingers crossed behind her back.

prawnsambo · 07-02-2019 7:15pm

tuxy wrote: »

Could they not do this on the phone and then have formal in person meetings once there was at least a hint that there might be progress.

What a waste of time.

Theresa May is staying away from the HoC for as long as possible. As long as she's not there, it's just marking time. And running down the clock obviously

Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

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