Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

Akrasia · 25-02-2019 11:01pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

If Brexit gets 'thwarted' they will dine out on it for years. The EU and remainers will be blamed forever more for all of Blighty's woes.

It would be poetic justice if the Brexit arch-incompetents had control of the bridge of HMS Britannia as it sunk.

Those same people would hate the EU and remainers regardless of what happens. The EU and those with different politics will always be scapegoats for all their problems

Laois_Man · 25-02-2019 11:03pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

The thought of a gang of UKIPpers and anti-EU Tories marching back into the EU parliament with the sole purpose of sowing division and discord bothers me.

Doesn't bother me at all. The more people there stalling the growth of that animal, the better.

ancapailldorcha · 25-02-2019 11:06pm

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

If Brexit gets 'thwarted' they will dine out on it for years. The EU and remainers will be blamed forever more for all of Blighty's woes.

Indeed.

However, we have two years of the sort of farce that Armando Iannucci would turn his nose up at that I don't think you've considered. From the very outset it was a travesty and then it somehow proceeded to get worse. David Cameron didn't wait for even 12 hours after the result before resigning. May, after taking the reigns set up two government departments and then went about jettisoning her majority in the House of Commons resulting in her being tied to a party that most British people would consider revolting. She drew up a set of absurd red lines of her own design. Her government proposed the backstop to get negotiations moving and then voted it down.

And through all of that, all of it we have moved not one jot beyond the stage of the Tory party deciding what it wants. Not one.

We were promised a global, buccaneering Britain. One which would cut bold trade deals with the rest of the world. One which would properly fund its health service. One which would escape the hell of EU regulations people can't wait to escape but can't actually name any of. Instead, we got Springtime for Hitler.

Look, reversing Brexit fixes nothing. The problems which caused it such as dubious press barons and oligarchs wielding terrifying amounts of influence an power, the incessant undermining of institutions, widening inequality, soaring property prices, appallingly mismanaged free movement and a broken electoral system. These are still there only now several high quality jobs have gone.

Remaining only makes sense if it's followed by reform. Otherwise, Farage, Rees-Mogg, Gove, Johnson and all the rest funded by their mysterious masters will be back to bring us back to this point and it'll all begin again.

Junkyard Tom · 25-02-2019 11:07pm

Akrasia wrote: »

Those same people would hate the EU and remainers regardless of what happens. The EU and those with different politics will always be scapegoats for all their problems

Oh I know that but they'd be discredited by the vast majority of British people I'd hope.

briany · 25-02-2019 11:15pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Remaining only makes sense if it's followed by reform. Otherwise, Farage, Rees-Mogg, Gove, Johnson and all the rest funded by their mysterious masters will be back to bring us back to this point and it'll all begin again.

If you've seen the documentary 'Collapse' with Michael Ruppert, Ruppert predicts that due to things like peak oil, each recession the world faces will be worse than the last, and each recovery will be less than the last. If Brexit was driven by austerity and inequality, then it will be inevitably fed by the next big economic downturn and come back as something even more monstrous. Although maybe by that point the UK, and indeed the rest of the West, might have bigger things to worry about than what economic bloc they're a part of.

prawnsambo · 25-02-2019 11:19pm

So as you were folks. The lunatics are back out of the padded cell.

That could mean anything of course. Different flavour unicorns vs May's unicorns or even no deal.

An Ciarraioch · 25-02-2019 11:19pm

The "Labour source" is generally considered to be Seamus Milne:

http://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1100139225356341248

An Ciarraioch · 25-02-2019 11:20pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

So as you were folks. The lunatics are back out of the padded cell.

Snap!

judeboy101 · 25-02-2019 11:21pm

briany wrote: »

If you've seen the documentary 'Collapse' with Michael Ruppert, Ruppert predicts that due to things like peak oil, each recession the world faces will be worse than the last, and each recovery will be less than the last. If Brexit was driven by austerity and inequality, then it will be inevitably fed by the next big economic downturn and come back as something even more monstrous. Although maybe by that point the UK, and indeed the rest of the West, might have bigger things to worry about than what economic bloc they're a part of.

Oil supposedly reached peak production in the 1970's, then again in the 80's followed by 90's, 00's and now 10's.

For Forks Sake · 25-02-2019 11:41pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Not to mention that Turkey's membership bid has been in limbo for the best part of two decades.

And there it will remain for the foreseeable future.

10000maniacs · 25-02-2019 11:43pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

I'd agree with this. The two main parties are effectively eschewing government n favour of internal party politics.

Brexit is nothing to do with party politics. Its not a right/left thing. It's the cult of leave and it affects left and right leaning people equally. The 52% to 48% ratio affects both main parties equally.
It was funny how both Conservatives and Labour responded to the New Independents when they left the main parties last week. The response of Emily Thornberry summed it up nicely, responding with abuse and the old party tribalism. She as well as 50% of the HOC miss the point that the old politics has failed on Brexit and the only way out of the mess is for everyone to put the country before party and have a peoples vote.

Professor Moriarty · 25-02-2019 11:50pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

The "Labour source" is generally considered to be Seamus Milne:

http://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1100139225356341248

So within three hours Labour is split as to what should be on the ballot paper of a second referendum. What's that sound? Ah yes, the clinking of glasses in Conservative HQ.

prawnsambo · 25-02-2019 11:54pm

10000maniacs wrote: »

Brexit is nothing to do with party politics. Its not a right/left thing. It's the cult of leave and it affects left and right leaning people equally. The 52% to 48% ratio affects both main parties equally.
It was funny how both Conservatives and Labour responded to the New Independents when they left the main parties last week. The response of Emily Thornberry summed it up nicely, responding with abuse and the old party tribalism. She as well as 50% of the HOC miss the point that the old politics has failed on Brexit and the only way out of the mess is for everyone to put the country before party and have a peoples vote.

I've no idea why you responded to my post with this. Especially since your next paragraph essentially expands on what I posted.

10000maniacs · 25-02-2019 11:59pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

I've no idea why you responded to my post with this. Especially since your next paragraph essentially expands on what I posted.

I agree with your post. My post wasn't an argument against your post. Just pointing that all commentary centres around party politics and its not really about that.

Mr.Nice Guy · 26-02-2019 12:02am

Personally I wouldn't want there to be a second referendum and for Brexit to be reversed. That would be a get out of jail free card for all those like the DUP, Farage, Johnson etc. who said it would be hunky dory and everything would be grand. They would then cry 'betrayal' and concoct their own 'stabbed in the back theory' a la Germany after WW1 and would dine off that for decades. While the EU would avoid short-term upheaval it would lead to a sullen and sulking member forever more, constantly looking to undermine things going forward.

In my view the best outcome is an orderly Brexit and if attitudes mature in the UK in twenty odd years - which I would doubt tbh - then they could look to reapply.

But to face decades of a narrative that screams "It really would have worked out if not for the traitors!"? No thank you.

youcantakethat · 26-02-2019 12:07am

Joanna Better Hairpiece wrote: »

Isn't there about x6 new countries in the Western Balkans about to join the 27?

Then (later) Turkey, and (much, much later) the Ukraine.

They need the sterling notes to pay for this,

They (the EU) will not be getting the billions of sterling notes any more.

The British rightfully hate to see their hard earned money wasted. For example, only a few years ago it was revealed that the European Commission had overspent its €220 million translation budget and had to supplement the cost from other sources. One small but telling reason is the cost of translation into the Irish language, which almost nobody is listening to or even reading in Brussels, which is twice the average rate for other languages. At €43 per page, it is almost twice the €22 average cost.

Irish ministers rarely speak Irish at the EU, and even Sinn Fein rarely does. However, Irish language campaigners have estimated that almost 200 full time jobs for Irish translators will be created when, incredibly, Irish becomes a full working language of the union in 2020.

No wonder the British want out.

Professor Moriarty · 26-02-2019 12:17am

youcantakethat wrote: »

They (the EU) will not be getting the billions of sterling notes any more.

The British rightfully hate to see their hard earned money wasted. For example, only a few years ago it was revealed that the European Commission had overspent its €220 million translation budget and had to supplement the cost from other sources. One small but telling reason is the cost of translation into the Irish language, which almost nobody is listening to or even reading in Brussels, which is twice the average rate for other languages. At €43 per page, it is almost twice the €22 average cost.

Irish ministers rarely speak Irish at the EU, and even Sinn Fein rarely does. However, Irish language campaigners have estimated that almost 200 full time jobs for Irish translators will be created when, incredibly, Irish becomes a full working language of the union in 2020.

No wonder the British want out.

Hmmm. A major principle of the EU is that it is a union which respects and fosters its members heritage and culture. Hence its longstanding and welcome support for the Irish language.

Wrt Britain leaving, I think you fundamentally misunderstand their core reasons for voting to leave.

4068ac1elhodqr · 26-02-2019 12:18am

youcantakethat wrote: »

They (the EU) will not be getting the billions of sterling notes any more.

If they vote remain, they will have to. Or if they want access to the market (for sale of goods) they will need a conribution.

£220m is peanuts in the grand scheme of things. 2017 the UK government paid £13 billion to the EU.

There will be waste anywhere that the greedy can cream off, whether it's childers hospitals, auto-translate scripts, HS2, or a couple of slow moving, outdated floating warships - all while many of the lower classes sleep rough or peruse food banks weekly.

youcantakethat · 26-02-2019 12:24am

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Hmmm. A major principle of the EU is that it is a union which respects and fosters its members heritage and culture. Hence its longstanding and welcome support for the Irish language.

Wrt Britain leaving, I think you fundamentally misunderstand their core reasons for voting to leave.

When the British voted to join the EEC in the early seventies there was no mention of the thousands of quangos or the 200 highly paid translators, translating Brussels matters in the the Irish language which would NEVER be read in Irish. No mention of the coming EU army either. I think you fundamentally misunderstand many people distrust of the EU, and the reason why it is the slowest growing region in the world, with chronic unemployment etc (double the UK rate).

FrancieBrady · 26-02-2019 12:27am

youcantakethat wrote: »

When the British voted to join the EEC in the early seventies there was no mention of the thousands of quangos or the 200 highly paid translators, translating Brussels matters in the the Irish language which would NEVER be read in Irish. No mention of the coming EU army either. I think you fundamentally misunderstand many people distrust of the EU, and the reason why it is the slowest growing region in the world, with chronic unemployment etc (double the UK rate).

And the UK never wasted any EU money? Or sanctioned it?
They were, like all the others...THE EU.

Professor Moriarty · 26-02-2019 12:28am

youcantakethat wrote: »

When the British voted to join the EEC in the early seventies there was no mention of the thousands of quangos or the 200 highly paid translators, translating Brussels matters in the the Irish language which would NEVER be read in Irish. No mention of the coming EU army either. I think you fundamentally misunderstand many people distrust of the EU, and the reason why it is the slowest growing region in the world, with chronic unemployment etc (double the UK rate).

Obviously, you believe that Irish translators were a major factor in the Leave vote. I don't subscribe to that point of view. Research shows that the primary reasons that people voted Leave were sovereignty, immigration and identity.

youcantakethat · 26-02-2019 12:38am

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Obviously, you believe that Irish translators were a major factor in the Leave vote.

Really? Where did I say that? I never said Irish language translators were "a major factor in the Leave vote"

FFS !

They are an example of EU waste. The British have been one of the biggest net contributors to EEC and then EU funds, they will not be for much longer.

Professor Moriarty · 26-02-2019 12:43am

youcantakethat wrote: »

Really? Where did I say that? I never said Irish language translators were "a major factor in the Leave vote"

FFS !

They are an example of EU waste. The British have been one of the biggest net contributors to EEC and then EU funds, they will not be for much longer.

Grand. We'll just have wait a little longer before the cost/benefit analysis of their departure becomes clear.

26-02-2019 12:49am

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/847941/EU-translation-services-overspend-Ireland-priciest

It's hilarious really. Any inane anti-EU argument can be found by typing it with the "the Express" into Google.

An Claidheamh · 26-02-2019 12:51am

youcantakethat wrote: »

Irish ministers rarely speak Irish at the EU, and even Sinn Fein rarely does. However, Irish language campaigners have estimated that almost 200 full time jobs for Irish translators will be created when, incredibly, Irish becomes a full working language of the union in 2020.

No wonder the British want out.

How is that bad for Ireland?

It creates jobs for Irish people.

It's not indeed any wonder why the Brits want out - the ignorant and xenophobic.

We'll still be getting their billions, just not directly.

youcantakethat · 26-02-2019 12:52am

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Grand. We'll just have wait a little longer before the cost/benefit analysis of their departure becomes clear.

Grand. given the waste and inefficiencies in the EU, I would say the UK will do just nicely in a number of years time, and will outlast the EU. Shame about our 200 highly paid Irish language translators, there are more of them than speak Irish here on a daily basis ffs! Maybe we could ask some of the newer member states to pay for them?

Professor Moriarty · 26-02-2019 12:56am

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/847941/EU-translation-services-overspend-Ireland-priciest

It's hilarious really. Any inane anti-EU argument can be found by typing it with the "the Express" into Google.

Very ironically, the Express' Irish translator article quotes Andrew Bridgen. The Brexiteer who believes that all English people are entitled to an Irish passport.

FrancieBrady · 26-02-2019 12:57am

youcantakethat wrote: »

Grand. given the waste and inefficiencies in the EU, I would say the UK will do just nicely in a number of years time, and will outlast the EU. Shame about our 200 highly paid Irish language translators, there are more of them than speak Irish here on a daily basis ffs! Maybe we could ask some of the newer member states to pay for them?

Not if they keep behaving like this. Seriously, if there is to be a new referendum, one hopes the public will better inform themselves. 'The Saintly UK' has lost it's ring.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/sep/29/eu-farming-subsidies-uk-cap-ceiling-england

But the European commission said in a statement that EU rules allow member states to substantially cut CAP “basic payments” to large landowners, such as most of those cited in the Greenpeace report, by applying a ceiling. Nine countries do so, the commission said, including Britain which applies an upper limit in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, where the funds generated are generally spent on rural development projects.

“The UK government chooses not to apply a ceiling in England,” the commission said, adding that repeated proposals for more radical reform – including a compulsory ceiling on basic payments to large landowners – have “consistently been watered down by national ministers”.

Brussels sources said Britain played a leading part in a small group of EU members that opposed the measure. As a result, a major 2014 CAP reform package did not include a compulsory upper limit – but left open an optional ceiling that could be applied at national level.

Professor Moriarty · 26-02-2019 12:59am

youcantakethat wrote: »

Grand. given the waste and inefficiencies in the EU, I would say the UK will do just nicely in a number of years time, and will outlast the EU. Shame about our 200 highly paid Irish language translators, there are more of them than speak Irish here on a daily basis ffs! Maybe we could ask some of the newer member states to pay for them?

I'm guessing you have an issue with Irish translators? Just a wild guess.

Anyway, I don't agree that Britain will be better off outside the EU. For what it's worth, neither does the British government.

An Claidheamh · 26-02-2019 1:04am

youcantakethat wrote: »

Grand. given the waste and inefficiencies in the EU, I would say the UK will do just nicely in a number of years time, and will outlast the EU. Shame about our 200 highly paid Irish language translators, there are more of them than speak Irish here on a daily basis ffs! Maybe we could ask some of the newer member states to pay for them?

I thought you lot and the UKIPers regarded us Irish as their "kith and kin" - seems like they have a massive chip on their shoulder about our culture. Guess we know who are real friends are.
Thanks Daily Express!

Wish they'd stop crawling on their hands and knees for us to hug them and be their friends though.

By the way, the UK will not outlast the EU - it is the stuff of delusional - you are delusional.

Sterling has collapsed, UK is a worldwide joke, Britain does not have a population 400 million.

You and your posts are nonsense.

Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

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