Recommend electric folding scooter for end of commute (Mod Note Post #1)

Teddy Daniels · 26-02-2019 7:38pm

cojomo2 wrote: »

Its not rocket science to legalise these, they are legal in many other EU cities..as another poster said, include them in the e bike exemption and remove the pedal assist requirement.

ok can I then get my pegged two wheel drive electric mountain bike ?

ted1 · 26-02-2019 7:45pm

cojomo2 wrote: »

Its not rocket science to legalise these, they are legal in many other EU cities..as another poster said, include them in the e bike exemption and remove the pedal assist requirement.

What European cities have legalised them ?
Was it the city or country ?

antodeco · 26-02-2019 7:58pm

Jesus, this thread is nearly as bad as motorists Vs cyclists now!

Zurbaran · 26-02-2019 9:54pm

antodeco wrote: »

Does it say the process to loosen it? Front seems ok now, but it may be able to be loosened massively more. Rear is very stiff. Not sure where to loosen it.

Thankfully no sparks from plugging it in yet for me!

Unfortunatley not.

It’s in the comments under this review https://youtu.be/FvrSUC_mtMc

antodeco · 26-02-2019 9:59pm

Zurbaran wrote: »

Unfortunatley not.

It’s in the comments under this review https://youtu.be/FvrSUC_mtMc

I replied to it there. I know the spring he's talking about it. Just didn't really see how you would loosen it!

prinzeugen · 27-02-2019 1:36am

loyatemu wrote: »

really - who is inspecting these tyres? or is just the CE mark?

Its more than the CE mark. They will be marked NHS or Not for Highway Service. Even if they have a E number (a circle with a E followed by a number, E11 for example), that means it has been made in the EU to EU standards. (they must have that to be road legal)

The other bit on the tyre will be a code that will give max speed etc. (ECE number IIRC)

It applies to other items also. I learned the law regarding that because of the tyres and helmet I used on my road-legal motocross bike.

Great fun getting pulled every few miles!

samih · 27-02-2019 6:18pm

Not sure if this was posted before:
ELECTRIC-POWERED SCOOTERS AND SKATEBOARDS FACING REGULATION

Minister has has asked RSA for guidance on how to accommodate these new types of "vehicles" that cannot be registered.

loyatemu · 27-02-2019 6:47pm

ted1 wrote: »

There are other issues. Woukd they be allowed on footpaths ?

I would say no, but I don't think there's anything to stop someone using an unpowered scooter on the footpath currently, and footpath cycling is largely unenforced.

Is the road suitable for them, with smaller wheels they are at a higher risk of accidents due to pot holes etc. This could lead to claims against councils etc.

good luck claiming against the council for potholes, how many cyclists have come off for that reason, or on the Luas tracks?

Would they be confined to cycle paths , how would this affect the flow of cyclists.

And so on

I don't see any reason why they couldn't use the cycle paths (I'm a regular cyclist but it wouldn't bother me, there's plenty of slow erratic cyclists already, I don't see how these would be any more annoying.)

These are already out there, the question is should we waste Garda resources going after them (and prosecuting people for not having license/insurance would be seriously disproportionate), or should we just regularise/clarify their legal status.

andydurnin · 03-03-2019 9:58pm

Where's the best place to buy a xiaomi m365 scooter that's around €400. Tried on gearbest and ordered got cancelled after 3 months of waiting.

Shefwedfan · 03-03-2019 10:22pm

https://www.geekbuying.com/item/-GE-Stock--EU-Version-Original-Xiaomi-M365-Folding-Electric-Scooter-395695.html?Currency=EUR&gclid=Cj0KCQiAk-7jBRD9ARIsAEy8mh5Wiur-HrcKxzDgKTkkpdmjgzRnm_9G__ITuLm8gDHiXKJheghrGqIaAtXxEALw_wcB

cojomo2 · 03-03-2019 10:23pm

andydurnin wrote: »

Where's the best place to buy a xiaomi m365 scooter that's around €400. Tried on gearbest and ordered got cancelled after 3 months of waiting.

3 store. €449, 2 year warranty, 2 spare tubes and tyres.

Theres a new "pro" version out now but not being stocked by 3 yet.

andydurnin · 04-03-2019 3:01am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

https://www.geekbuying.com/item/-GE-Stock--EU-Version-Original-Xiaomi-M365-Folding-Electric-Scooter-395695.html?Currency=EUR&gclid=Cj0KCQiAk-7jBRD9ARIsAEy8mh5Wiur-HrcKxzDgKTkkpdmjgzRnm_9G__ITuLm8gDHiXKJheghrGqIaAtXxEALw_wcB

Have you bought of them? How long it take to deliver?

Calahonda52 · 04-03-2019 11:53am

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/council-seeks-to-ban-electric-scooters-from-public-roads-908493.html
Electric scooters should be banned from public roads and cycle paths, according to Dublin City Council.

Despite the rise in popularity of the two-wheel electric mode of transport, especially in cities, the majority of users are breaking the law.

“It is the council’s view that the use of electric scooters on public roads is illegal and that it is a matter for An Garda Síochána to enforce under road traffic legislation,” a spokeswoman for Dublin City Council said.

It is also illegal to ride a scooter on cycle paths, according to the Road Safety Authority.

etc

beauf · 04-03-2019 12:10pm

Interesting how its phrased to make it even less clear...

...using human power to initiated movement...

.. and the actually legislation ignored. They just rely on what someone else said rather than actually looking up the legislation or how its dealt with in other countries.

bk · 04-03-2019 12:24pm

beauf wrote: »

Interesting how its phrased to make it even less clear...

.. and the actually legislation ignored. They just rely on what someone else said rather than actually looking up the legislation or how its dealt with in other countries.

propel
verb: drive or push something forwards.
propel; 3rd person present: propels; past tense: propelled; past participle: propelled; gerund or present participle: propelling; adjective: -propelled drive or push something forwards. "the boat is propelled by using a very long paddle"
synonyms: push/move forwards, move, set in motion, get moving, drive More

I think they have come to realise that many of these DO NOT fall under the definition of MPV.

The fact that you "propel" these forward using the human body means that they aren't MPV's.

Of course there are some of them that are MPV's, but not the push to start ones.

ongarite · 04-03-2019 1:09pm

andydurnin wrote: »

Where's the best place to buy a xiaomi m365 scooter that's around €400. Tried on gearbest and ordered got cancelled after 3 months of waiting.

Amazon Spain for €370, sold by Amazon.
Euro version with 2 spare tubes.
https://www.amazon.es/gp/offer-listing/B077QHRLPB/ref=mw_dp_olp?ie=UTF8&condition=all

beauf · 04-03-2019 1:54pm

bk wrote: »

....
Of course there are some of them that are MPV's, but not the push to start ones.

.. The bicycles with petrol motors are push to start....

bk · 04-03-2019 2:51pm

beauf wrote: »

.. The bicycles with petrol motors are push to start....

Do they not have a throttle?

Also aren't they specifically listed in the Road Traffic Act?

The question is can those bikes possibly started and propelled forward with no use of human movement? If they can, then yes, they are a MPV.

If you can stand on an escooter while stopped and start it moving by just pressing a button/throttle, then yes, it is an MPV.

However if you stand on it and there is no way for it to move. You have to propel it forward with your foot a few times, then no, it isn't a MPV.

Note, IANAL, but that is my reading of the legislation and that seems to be the official view, given the comments that have appeared in the papers, etc. in the last few weeks.

Here is a statement from the Garda Press office:

“this office understands is whether they are powered solely by an electric or mechanical means or assisted, i.e. using human power to initiate movement”.

beauf · 04-03-2019 3:10pm

No the bicycles with petrol motors (all the ones I have seen) have to be physically cycled to start.

All of them and the scooters have throttles. I don't see what that has to got to do with it. Many have cruise control.

So they are all the same as regards legislation.

So if the scooters are legal with push to start then also will the bicycles with engines also be. The arguments are the same for both vehicles.

ted1 · 04-03-2019 3:16pm

bk wrote: »

Do they not have a throttle?

Also aren't they specifically listed in the Road Traffic Act?

The question is can those bikes possibly started and propelled forward with no use of human movement? If they can, then yes, they are a MPV.

If you can stand on an escooter while stopped and start it moving by just pressing a button/throttle, then yes, it is an MPV.

However if you stand on it and there is no way for it to move. You have to propel it forward with your foot a few times, then no, it isn't a MPV.

Note, IANAL, but that is my reading of the legislation and that seems to be the official view, given the comments that have appeared in the papers, etc. in the last few weeks.

Here is a statement from the Garda Press office:

So if I can push start a car it no longer is an MOV?

beauf · 04-03-2019 3:18pm

ted1 wrote: »

So if I can push start a car it no longer is an MOV?

Basically if you make anything in your shed and push to start it, they want it to be legal. Rocket powered soap kart here we go...

beauf · 04-03-2019 3:20pm

Here's one starting....

https://youtu.be/DvkBKkgYIGc

Perfect for the cycle lanes....

bk · 04-03-2019 3:21pm

Well that is exactly what the legislation says.

BTW I think they realise their is a massive hole in the legislation. It looks like it needs to be carefully revamped to take into account all sorts of new vehicles.

beauf · 04-03-2019 3:22pm

Maybe one of these...

https://youtu.be/6GIf2C8xbxQ

beauf · 04-03-2019 3:23pm

The intent of the legislation is that once you stop pedaling the eBike stops. But who ever writes legislation cant do it in English.

bk · 04-03-2019 4:03pm

beauf wrote: »

The intent of the legislation is that once you stop pedaling the eBike stops. But who ever writes legislation cant do it in English.

As far as I can tell, ebikes where never actually written into the Irish legislation.

They are covered by EU directives, but the RTA doesn't seem to make any mention of that Directive. I suspect ebikes aren't included as MPV's simply because they aren't "propelled" by mechanical means, so were never MPV's to start with.

Interestingly from what I can tell, the EU regulation that specifically excludes ebikes, also already excludes escooters:

REGULATION (EU) No 168/2013 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL

of 15 January 2013

on the approval and market surveillance of two- or three-wheel vehicles and quadricycles

2. This Regulation does not apply to the following vehicles:
..........

(h) pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h;

...

(j) vehicles not equipped with at least one seating position;

(j) vehicles not equipped with at least one seating position;

would seem to cover standup escooters.

bk · 04-03-2019 4:22pm

Ah, here is the statutory instrument bringing the above EU Regulation into Irish law:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015/si/614/made/en/print

In fairness to the EU, this does much more clearly define what an ebike, etc. are. Though it is still a little wishy washy about escooters. I think it does cover them, but not as clearly and definitively as ebikes. I suspect they will need further clarification from the EU and I suspect that is why the various legal folk are all over the place on this at the moment and don't want to legislate on it, in case the EU goes a different way on it in future.

beauf · 04-03-2019 4:42pm

I think we are ok for rocket powered skateboards

Nice 1

bk · 04-03-2019 4:44pm

beauf wrote: »

I think we are ok for rocket powered skateboards

Nice 1

Well strictly speaking a skateboard doesn't have a seat, so......

ted1 · 04-03-2019 6:41pm

bk wrote: »

Ah, here is the statutory instrument bringing the above EU Regulation into Irish law:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015/si/614/made/en/print

In fairness to the EU, this does much more clearly define what an ebike, etc. are. Though it is still a little wishy washy about escooters. I think it does cover them, but not as clearly and definitively as ebikes. I suspect they will need further clarification from the EU and I suspect that is why the various legal folk are all over the place on this at the moment and don't want to legislate on it, in case the EU goes a different way on it in future.

European law is based on the spirit of the law
Irish law are based on the letter of the law

Recommend electric folding scooter for end of commute (Mod Note Post #1)

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