Ireland Team Talk Thread IX: Grand Slam Champions SEE MOD WARNING POST #1122

bilston · 03-12-2018 10:06pm

awec wrote: »

Bowe was up there with BOD and POC in terms of his ability and standing in his position.

So asking if Stockdale is better than Bowe is like asking if Ringrose is better than BOD, or Ryan better than POC. The answer is no, not yet at least.

He's only 22, and hopefully has another 10 years in the tank. A lot of room for him to grow.

Ringrose, Stockdale and Ryan have achieved a lot more as a collective than BOD, Bowe and POC had done by the age of 22/23. Are they individually better? Well Ringrose isn't better than BOD was and probably never will be, but then he plays in an era where defences are lot better than they were when BOD was at his rampaging best.

I think Stockdale and Ryan have every chance to surpass POC and Bowe.

its_phil · 03-12-2018 10:08pm

The Parish King wrote: »

Anyone see in the Times today that Cuminksy included Doris in his squad of 31 for Japan?

Hard to know if this was just a throwaway inclusion to generate some interest (as his logic seemed to be that there has to be a bolter within the forwards each RWC, and he also failed to mention Conan once!).

But I guess my question is, is Doris really that highly rated? I haven’t been that impressed when I’ve seen him this year (more so that he hasn’t stood out, rather than unimpressed), however it is impressive to be getting this amount of game time straight after the u20s.

The only thing surprising about Cummiskeys 31 for next years RWC is that it didn’t include the 2019 Blackrock SCT

MattD · 03-12-2018 10:09pm

The Parish King wrote: »

Anyone see in the Times today that Cuminksy included Doris in his squad of 31 for Japan?

Hard to know if this was just a throwaway inclusion to generate some interest (as his logic seemed to be that there has to be a bolter within the forwards each RWC, and he also failed to mention Conan once!).

But I guess my question is, is Doris really that highly rated? I haven’t been that impressed when I’ve seen him this year (more so that he hasn’t stood out, rather than unimpressed), however it is impressive to be getting this amount of game time straight after the u20s.

I mean... He's good...?! But that's ludicrous. There's even some people who want Deegan to be getting more time ahead of Doris. He's a big carrier and does a lot of work at the breakdown, but he's not James Ryan levels of demanding selection at Leinster The absolute only reason to bring him would be because he's a specialist 8... But to bring him over Conan, Murphy, Ruddock would be lunacy from Joe...

Just a random intentional wild card to get people fired up.

RockBoysarewii · 03-12-2018 10:15pm

I don’t think Stockdale will get past bone due to wingers shelf life decreasing.

leakyboots · 04-12-2018 12:06am

jacothelad wrote: »

Feck. I had just got over that and now you have caused it to emerge from the swamp again. Anto, the only international winger slower than a second row.:D:D:D

I think you're forgetting Dave Kearney being caught by Launchbury in 2014

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/feb/23/england-joe-launchbury-six-nations

jonok28 · 04-12-2018 10:49am

MattD wrote: »

I mean... He's good...?! But that's ludicrous. There's even some people who want Deegan to be getting more time ahead of Doris. He's a big carrier and does a lot of work at the breakdown, but he's not James Ryan levels of demanding selection at Leinster The absolute only reason to bring him would be because he's a specialist 8... But to bring him over Conan, Murphy, Ruddock would be lunacy from Joe...

Just a random intentional wild card to get people fired up.

100% thrown in to get people talking otherwise most people would have a fairly similar 31. This November series has got me seriously thinking that we need to move on from Sean O'Brien and plan as if he isn't available, his injury history the last few years has ruined him and it just seems to be careless to ear mark a position for him if he can't stay fit. Now if he puts a decent amount of games together and is able to play a full Six Nations and looks like O'Brien of old then definitely have him in the 31 but otherwise someone like Murphy or Conan would make the more sense as they can offer the cover needed at 8 incase Stander was to get injured,

Leavy, Van Der Flier, O'Mahony, Stander and Murphy would be my choice for the forwards going to Japan.

04-12-2018 10:59am

The Parish King wrote: »

Anyone see in the Times today that Cuminksy included Doris in his squad of 31 for Japan?

Hard to know if this was just a throwaway inclusion to generate some interest (as his logic seemed to be that there has to be a bolter within the forwards each RWC, and he also failed to mention Conan once!).

But I guess my question is, is Doris really that highly rated? I haven’t been that impressed when I’ve seen him this year (more so that he hasn’t stood out, rather than unimpressed), however it is impressive to be getting this amount of game time straight after the u20s.

Doris has yet to play European rugby or International rugby. That doesn't mean it's impossible, all it means is that he has to do both of those things before it's even remotely a reality.

He then also needs to play to a standard that he is immediately considered superior to players that have delivered consistently at Euro and International level.

So it's not impossible, but I suspect not making the AI squad probably indicates that it's extremely unlikely. A succession of injuries might change that outlook, but he has a long road in front of him and not a lot of time left.

Granny15 · 04-12-2018 12:24pm

Doris is not that far off. Remember Ryans or Larmours breakout season - they were either immediately involved or on the periphery of the national squad and in positions there was competition. If he can continue to show up in attritional games and make the yards carrying he makes and be effective in the tight exchanges then it is not out of the question that he be included in the World Cup squad. In fact it is achievable considering he has already bypassed Deegan for the backup 8 shirt and Conan is having an injury disrupted season.

Buer · 04-12-2018 12:38pm

The Parish King wrote: »

Anyone see in the Times today that Cuminksy included Doris in his squad of 31 for Japan?

Hard to know if this was just a throwaway inclusion to generate some interest (as his logic seemed to be that there has to be a bolter within the forwards each RWC, and he also failed to mention Conan once!).

But I guess my question is, is Doris really that highly rated? I haven’t been that impressed when I’ve seen him this year (more so that he hasn’t stood out, rather than unimpressed), however it is impressive to be getting this amount of game time straight after the u20s.

The Doris selection is just a red herring to stir it up.

Is he highly rated though? Yes, very much so. How many 20 year old forwards are getting multiple starts and keeping someone like Deegan out of the team? I know Deegan is only a kid himself but he was involved in European match day squads and interpros last season.

He isn't tearing it up like Ryan did but Ryan is a once in a generation talent. Doris is 20 years old though and looking exceptionally comfortable in matches against experienced professionals and is only going to get better.

RWC? Not a hope. But there's every chance he develops to the point where he's putting real pressure on Conan by the end of next season and involved in an Irish squad.

The problem for Leinster will be seeking to develop both Deegan and Doris. They're very different players with distinct styles. With Jack Conan only having turned 26 over the summer, I don't know how all will be accommodated. Eventually, I think someone is going to have to move north, to be honest. No.8 is an area where they could definitely improve.

aloooof · 04-12-2018 1:18pm

I think for Doris to have any chance, it'd require a long-term injury to Conan before the 6 Nations (would give him more provincial opportunities as well) and an injury to CJ at the time of the RWC. Even then, it may not happen. And that's without mentioning how he'd have to perform himself.

The Rape of Lucretia · 04-12-2018 1:34pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

I think Stockdale will have a long career. .

If he was on Leinster, we'd prostrate ourselves before him and proclaim him "Messiah "

Its clear he is not a Leinster player though. This shows in the lack of all round polish, and how he has considerably more development road to go than equivalent Leinster talent at a similar age. The much slagged Leinster schools, and academy, are coaching players better, and faster, to elite level skills, than any other province. They are streets ahead. Some of the gap can be made up, some of it (that elusive 'class' element, which imo is simply the benefit of higher level coaching sooner in their lives creating learned habits to do the right thing under pressure instinctively), probably cannot.

arsebiscuits1 · 04-12-2018 2:00pm

The Parish King wrote: »

Anyone see in the Times today that Cuminksy included Doris in his squad of 31 for Japan?

Hard to know if this was just a throwaway inclusion to generate some interest (as his logic seemed to be that there has to be a bolter within the forwards each RWC, and he also failed to mention Conan once!).

But I guess my question is, is Doris really that highly rated? I haven’t been that impressed when I’ve seen him this year (more so that he hasn’t stood out, rather than unimpressed), however it is impressive to be getting this amount of game time straight after the u20s.

Doris wont be at this World Cup but this season will very much be his breakout one would think.

Heard from a few how highly rated he was and tipped for big things.

I don't think he will break into international rugby as soon as Ryan, Porter, Stockdale or Larmour did. But I think he can make the step up. Things holding him back are trying to settle a squad in a RWC year and the sheer amount of options ahead of him.

He's a smart carrier - very good at identifying the soft shoulder and has the footwork to match. Seems to have tidy hands and good aggression complimented by technique.

Something that might set him apart from a lot of number 8s on this Island though in the future is he appears to be an outstanding lineout option. Gets right up and very good technique in the air. Hopefully he can work on this and bring it to some crunch games

Clegg · 04-12-2018 2:18pm

Max Deegan is still who I'd pick to be Ireland's long term 8. He's still a huge talent.

Wegians89 · 04-12-2018 2:36pm

Clegg wrote: »

Max Deegan is still who I'd pick to be Ireland's long term 8. He's still a huge talent.

Don’t think there’ll be any back row bolter but if there had to be should probably be Paul Boyle. Having a much more impressive season than Doris or deegan so far. Can cover 6,7 and 8. Ceiling for potential is probably higher with deegan and Doris but atm I think Boyle would get it. Could probably add timoney to that list too

troyzer · 04-12-2018 2:37pm

Wegians89 wrote: »

Don’t think there’ll be any back row bolter but if there had to be should probably be Paul Boyle. Having a much more impressive season than Doris or deegan so far. Can cover 6,7 and 8. Ceiling for potential is probably higher with deegan and Doris but atm I think Boyle would get it

Who?

Wegians89 · 04-12-2018 2:39pm

troyzer wrote: »

Who?

Former Irish u20 captain having a great season for Connacht

troyzer · 04-12-2018 2:44pm

Wegians89 wrote: »

Former Irish u20 captain having a great season for Connacht

Oh yeah, was he captain? Dorris was as well.

Still, can't see either of them going. But Dorris has far more opportunities to impress. It seems likely that he'll get European game time this year.

Impressing in Europe is probably the only way you can get into the extended six nations squad and if you're not there, you're not going to Japan.

Paul Smeenus · 04-12-2018 2:45pm

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Its clear he is not a Leinster player though. This shows in the lack of all round polish, and how he has considerably more development road to go than equivalent Leinster talent at a similar age. The much slagged Leinster schools, and academy, are coaching players better, and faster, to elite level skills, than any other province. They are streets ahead. Some of the gap can be made up, some of it (that elusive 'class' element, which imo is simply the benefit of higher level coaching sooner in their lives creating learned habits to do the right thing under pressure instinctively), probably cannot.

"Much slagged"? Eh?

Dubinusa · 04-12-2018 3:35pm

Conan, Deegan and Doris oh no!!!!
Who gets to accept a transfer?
But realistically, what a place to be in!! Look at the 8's around the country.
O'Donahue
Boyle
Stander
Copeland
It's mad. Then there's up and coming talent like Timoney and Allison in Ulster.
Are we worthy?

jmn51927 · 04-12-2018 3:43pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

Conan, Deegan and Doris oh no!!!!
Who gets to accept a transfer?
But realistically, what a place to be in!! Look at the 8's around the country.
O'Donahue
Boyle
Stander
Copeland
It's mad. Then there's up and coming talent like Timoney and Allison in Ulster.
Are we worthy?

Brilliant point. If deegan was hypothetically English it would not surprise me if he was first choice for a lot of premiership sides. While here he wouldn’t be 2nd choice at Ulster and might just be second at Connacht. Great depth across the board at this stage

vetinari · 04-12-2018 7:09pm

troyzer wrote: »

Absolute nonsense.
In terms of importance Ireland is basically this:

Murray, Sexton, Kearney, Furlong, Toner, Stander, Ringrose, Healy and then everyone else.

Sexton is clearly Ireland's most important player.
We have a lot of depth after that.
Furlong and Healy both have replacements that can hold up in most big games. Murray, Furlong, Toner, Stander, Ringrose and Healy have adequate replacements. Kearney's defensive excellence would be missed in big games but Stockdales attacking threat is more important imo.

We don't have another player close to Stockdale's level in terms of finishing. It's a huge bonus.
It allows us to turn pressure into points. You take Stockdale's try out of the New Zealand game for instance and it's paints a far different picture of our attacking threat.

jmn51927 · 04-12-2018 7:24pm

vetinari wrote: »

Sexton is clearly Ireland's most important player.
We have a lot of depth after that.
Furlong and Healy both have replacements that can hold up in most big games. Murray, Furlong, Toner, Stander, Ringrose and Healy have adequate replacements. Kearney's defensive excellence would be missed in big games but Stockdales attacking threat is more important imo.

We don't have another player close to Stockdale's level in terms of finishing. It's a huge bonus.
It allows us to turn pressure into points. You take Stockdale's try out of the New Zealand game for instance and it's paints a far different picture of our attacking threat.

*insert face palm emoji*

Shefwedfan · 04-12-2018 9:47pm

vetinari wrote: »

Sexton is clearly Ireland's most important player.
We have a lot of depth after that.
Furlong and Healy both have replacements that can hold up in most big games. Murray, Furlong, Toner, Stander, Ringrose and Healy have adequate replacements. Kearney's defensive excellence would be missed in big games but Stockdales attacking threat is more important imo.

We don't have another player close to Stockdale's level in terms of finishing. It's a huge bonus.
It allows us to turn pressure into points. You take Stockdale's try out of the New Zealand game for instance and it's paints a far different picture of our attacking threat.

Earls to name one......Conway

Larmour has shown an eye for a try....

Should I continue?

bilston · 04-12-2018 10:37pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Earls to name one......Conway

Larmour has shown an eye for a try....

Should I continue?

To be fair Stockdale has scored 12 tries in 14 games. That's incomparable for any Irish winger ever. He has scored some massive (historical) tries as well, namely against Wales, England and New Zealand. Now I realise there are some who like to put him down for whatever reason, but I feel he gets judged a lot more harshly than some other players. People were ridiculously quick to question his position in the team in favour of Jordan Larmour a few weeks ago, which in hindsight is absurd when you think of what Stockdale has done in the last 18 months for Ireland and the last 3 years for Ulster.

Anyway is he Ireland's second most important player?

No, definitely not.

Is he an important member of the Ireland team?

Well his record surely speaks for itself.

I think if he played for Leinster or Munster he'd have a lot more cheerleaders in the Irish media, however he doesn't and therefore he will probably find it a little harder than some to feel the love.

Dubinusa · 04-12-2018 10:42pm

Yea he would be idolized at Leinster or Munster. I think he is just a great athlete. Oh, and he's not a bad player.
He definitely deserves his spot and hopefully he keeps up the good work.

Shefwedfan · 04-12-2018 11:00pm

bilston wrote: »

To be fair Stockdale has scored 12 tries in 14 games. That's incomparable for any Irish winger ever. He has scored some massive (historical) tries as well, namely against Wales, England and New Zealand. Now I realise there are some who like to put him down for whatever reason, but I feel he gets judged a lot more harshly than some other players. People were ridiculously quick to question his position in the team in favour of Jordan Larmour a few weeks ago, which in hindsight is absurd when you think of what Stockdale has done in the last 18 months for Ireland and the last 3 years for Ulster.

Anyway is he Ireland's second most important player?

No, definitely not.

Is he an important member of the Ireland team?

Well his record surely speaks for itself.

I think if he played for Leinster or Munster he'd have a lot more cheerleaders in the Irish media, however he doesn't and therefore he will probably find it a little harder than some to feel the love.

Hold on a minute now. Who is putting him down? Did I say anything bad about Stockdale?

I was reply to a post that suggested Ireland have no attacking threat without Stockdale and that he is more important than anyone else on the team bar Sexton.

This is not true. The suggestion was take Stockdale out of the NZ game and Ireland might not have won. What about Ireland killing the NZ scrum the majority of the match? etc etc.....

joseywhales · 05-12-2018 12:35am

I've seen people complain about sextons tee kicking, Ryan's lineout work and most disgraceful of all, furlongs scrummaging. There will basically never be a player that won't be bashed online, even if it was possible to be perfect someone will find a knock on against Canada when he was 20 and he had a sinus infection.

typhoony · 05-12-2018 1:16am

must have admit I thought initially when Stockdale broke into the team he was an average player and was caught out defensively a couple of times, but last 9 months from what I've seen he's improved massively, I don't think Ulster fans go in for the over-hyping of players like Leinster and Munster, they just see him as one of their own.

leakyboots · 05-12-2018 1:27am

Tis confusing keeping up with the party line on here, once upon a time on here one's try scoring rate didn't matter for wingers cos they could present the ball after being tackled or something. Now we want our wingers scoring tries again? Cool!

Former Former · 05-12-2018 1:34am

Ulster fans are just as prone to over-hyping their players as anyone else. Plenty of examples of that over the last few years.

Stockdale is a great player, I don't see anyone suggesting otherwise.

Ireland Team Talk Thread IX: Grand Slam Champions SEE MOD WARNING POST #1122

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