Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

prawnsambo · 13-02-2019 1:36pm

L1011 wrote: »

The IDA were allegedly close to getting Nissan in to Cork (before May's bribe), so we are trying. No nuclear power does not help in energy heavy industry like that

We're currently generating a surplus. However, we will need more generating capacity to replace the older stations and meet future demand projections. The closure of Aughinish Alumina actually provided most of that surplus.

briany · 13-02-2019 1:39pm

Call me Al wrote: »

Those voters were also told that brexit didn't mean losing access to the Single market. That the vision for the new UK would simply expand beyond their current borders. So if their inclination was to dislike some things about the EU of course you'd jump at the opportunity. Wouldn't everyone!
So in their eyes there was no self-harm. They made sure not to over-think things either.

You'd think, then, that the Brexit movement would shrivel up as voters realise what it might actually entail. While Remain might win a second referendum, there also appears to be a lot of people apparently doubling down on their desire to leave the EU.

Now it could be that all the die-hards are soldiering on because they have no idea what a no-deal might actually look like, but I wonder if there's anything that could happen to these people that would make them think Brexit was a bad idea. All bad fallout I expect them to blame on the EU.

prawnsambo · 13-02-2019 1:46pm

briany wrote: »

You'd think, then, that the Brexit movement would shrivel up as voters realise what it might actually entail. While Remain might win a second referendum, there also appears to be a lot of people apparently doubling down on their desire to leave the EU.

Now it could be that all the die-hards are soldiering on because they have no idea what a no-deal might actually look like, but I wonder if there's anything that could happen to these people that would make them think Brexit was a bad idea. All bad fallout I expect them to blame on the EU.

They are living in an echo chamber that they'd helped build around themselves. So the Brexit Centrals, Standup4Brexits and the so-called think-thanks among many others are pushing disinformation on an industrial scale at these people. So every issue that crops up is waved away by some propaganda or other. Like the Nissan are leaving because X-Trail and diesel and they aren't run very well trope or the 'Lets go WTO' or WTOBrexit or Article 24 WTO [sic]. Ask a question and you'll get all these talking points as an answer. And they believe them because they want to believe them. Because the alternative can't be contemplated.

Anthracite · 13-02-2019 1:47pm

murphaph wrote: »

Weak pound + still a member of the single market for another few weeks, calm before the storm stuff. If a softish deal is somehow done, the pound will rally and exports will fall and the ERG will say it's because they didn't "just leave". You can't win.

Even the impacts of a crash out will be blamed on the EU/Ireland.

My working theory on this is that there is huge spending in the UK for Brexit planning and contingencies. This is unproductive use of money that should be going into productive investment, and it can only be spent once. Even if Brexit was cancelled today, that will hit the UK's future productivity in ways that will be felt for years to come.

ancapailldorcha · 13-02-2019 1:48pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

They are living in an echo chamber that they'd helped build around themselves. So the Brexit Centrals, Standup4Brexits and the so-called think-thanks among many others are pushing disinformation on an industrial scale at these people. So every issue that crops up is waved away by some propaganda or other. Like the Nissan are leaving because X-Trail and diesel and they aren't run very well trope or the 'Lets go WTO' or WTOBrexit or Article 24 WTO [sic]. Ask a question and you'll get all these talking points as an answer. And they believe them because they want to believe them. Because the alternative can't be contemplated.

It's worse than this. You have a whole plethora of right-wing, foreign funded think tanks suspiciously headquartered on Tufton street. We have no idea who is funding these organisations which in my opinion casts aspersions on their "research".

ambro25 · 13-02-2019 2:15pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It's worse than this. You have a whole plethora of right-wing, foreign funded think tanks suspiciously headquartered on Tufton street. We have no idea who is funding these organisations which in my opinion casts aspersions on their "research".

Take your blind pick from any foreign government, hedge fund and other assorted donors to populist and/or far right political parties, each with a vested interest to, if not have the EU fail outright, then at least establish a neoliberal utopia on its shores.

You won't fall far from the truth.

ancapailldorcha · 13-02-2019 2:29pm

No more comedy links please. Post deleted.

BobbyBobberson · 13-02-2019 2:34pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It's worse than this. You have a whole plethora of right-wing, foreign funded think tanks suspiciously headquartered on Tufton street. We have no idea who is funding these organisations which in my opinion casts aspersions on their "research".

Yup. I cannot believe that Question Time allow Chloe Westley on their show without knowing who funds her. It is crazy that these people are given airtime without knowing who is behind them.

An Ciarraioch · 13-02-2019 2:35pm

Call me Al wrote: »

Those voters were also told that brexit didn't mean losing access to the Single market. That the vision for the new UK would simply expand beyond their current borders. So if their inclination was to dislike some things about the EU of course you'd jump at the opportunity. Wouldn't everyone!
So in their eyes there was no self-harm. They made sure not to over-think things either.

British ex-pat who voted for Brexit before moving to Spain now shocked it could affect her right to live there!

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47214093

ancapailldorcha · 13-02-2019 2:36pm

BobbyBobberson wrote: »

Yup. I cannot believe that Question Time allow Chloe Westley on their show without knowing who funds her. It is crazy that these people are given airtime without knowing who is behind them.

There's also Kate Andrews of the Institute of Economic Affairs and formerly of the Adam Smith Institute, both pro-free market think tanks based on Tufton street.

bob mcbob · 13-02-2019 2:38pm

Continuing the shambles that is ECMT for freight haulage companies, if there is a hard Brexit, hauliers will also have to fill out a 38 page safety and security form if they actually manage to get on a ferry.

This is required for each consignment on the lorry.

It will also impact Irish truckers.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/13/freight-industry-fears-security-check-chaos-under-no-deal-brexit

BobbyBobberson · 13-02-2019 2:41pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

There's also Kate Andrews of the Institute of Economic Affairs and formerly of the Adam Smith Institute, both pro-free market think tanks based on Tufton street.

I could not think of her name for love nor money. You would imagine that something as influential as Question Time would have transparency guidelines for guests.

To add, when I say influential I don't mean overly influential but it certainly raised Farage's profile. 32 appearances!

Havockk · 13-02-2019 2:44pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

There's also Kate Andrews of the Institute of Economic Affairs and formerly of the Adam Smith Institute, both pro-free market think tanks based on Tufton street.

It's the Kochs. They have been peddling this message for years. I honestly thought the neo-liberal dream had died, but it seems not, they will press ahead.

Worst of all, they are all registered as charities.

ilovesmybrick · 13-02-2019 2:46pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

British ex-pat who voted for Brexit before moving to Spain now shocked it could affect her right to live there!

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47214093

I know one or two retired British pensioners in Ireland who are in a similar position. They voted for Brexit and are now trying to get things like hips and knees operated on before the exit and aren't sure if they'll stay because of the drop in value of their pensions. It's all well and good to say that they voted for this without thinking about the unintended consequences, but I do feel quite a bit of sympathy for them. These people were born in the forties and it is a natural tendency to think back on the past with rose tinted glasses. I also think they were shocked, as are most people, with the sheer ineptness of the current UK government.

To be honest it would be sad to see these people leave. The people I've come across generally live in West Clare and Galway and for years have integrated and engaged with the community getting involved in and helping with things like turf cutting, small farming, arts and crafts etc. They've been a great benefit to these rural communities. I don't blame them for their vote, it was their right to vote as they did, but the limbo they've been left in for the past three years by Westminster is nothing short of criminal. It's all well and good to say that it's in each states remit to grant reciprocal rights, which doesn't really apply in the case of Ireland, but there appears to have been next to no consideration given to things like health care.

BobbyBobberson · 13-02-2019 2:52pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

British ex-pat who voted for Brexit before moving to Spain now shocked it could affect her right to live there!

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47214093

Voting for Brexit and then skipping the country is some move! Ha!

Sparko · 13-02-2019 2:55pm

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

British ex-pat who voted for Brexit before moving to Spain now shocked it could affect her right to live there!

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47214093

"When I voted to leave I didn't think it would change anything," says Yvonne Stone

Who knew a vote to change would cause changes.. Embarrassing.

robinph · 13-02-2019 2:57pm

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

I know one or two retired British pensioners in Ireland who are in a similar position. They voted for Brexit and are now trying to get things like hips and knees operated on before the exit and aren't sure if they'll stay because of the drop in value of their pensions. It's all well and good to say that they voted for this without thinking about the unintended consequences, but I do feel quite a bit of sympathy for them. These people were born in the forties and it is a natural tendency to think back on the past with rose tinted glasses. I also think they were shocked, as are most people, with the sheer ineptness of the current UK government.

To be honest it would be sad to see these people leave. The people I've come across generally live in West Clare and Galway and for years have integrated and engaged with the community getting involved in and helping with things like turf cutting, small farming, arts and crafts etc. They've been a great benefit to these rural communities. I don't blame them for their vote, it was their right to vote as they did, but the limbo they've been left in for the past three years by Westminster is nothing short of criminal. It's all well and good to say that it's in each states remit to grant reciprocal rights, which doesn't really apply in the case of Ireland, but there appears to have been next to no consideration given to things like health care.

I have no sympathy for them whatsoever.

There is absolutely zero reason to think that when asked if you want to remain a member of a club, or not, to think that on voting to leave that club you would continue to have access to the facilities of that club.

I also have zero sympathy for my mother who voted leave and the abuse that I give her whenever possible for doing so. The ignorance behind voting that way despite her children have lived and worked and made benefit of all aspects of the EU, and have children in law are citizens of other EU (and non-EU) countries, and grandkids who are (thankfully) citizens of UK and other EU (and non-EU) countries, but for her to think that a vote to break off connections with the EU will not have direct negative impact on her family. <angry>

It is just astounding how stupid people who are not stupid can be.

MrMusician18 · 13-02-2019 2:59pm

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

I know one or two retired British pensioners in Ireland who are in a similar position. They voted for Brexit and are now trying to get things like hips and knees operated on before the exit and aren't sure if they'll stay because of the drop in value of their pensions. It's all well and good to say that they voted for this without thinking about the unintended consequences, but I do feel quite a bit of sympathy for them. These people were born in the forties and it is a natural tendency to think back on the past with rose tinted glasses. I also think they were shocked, as are most people, with the sheer ineptness of the current UK government.

To be honest it would be sad to see these people leave. The people I've come across generally live in West Clare and Galway and for years have integrated and engaged with the community getting involved in and helping with things like turf cutting, small farming, arts and crafts etc. They've been a great benefit to these rural communities. I don't blame them for their vote, it was their right to vote as they did, but the limbo they've been left in for the past three years by Westminster is nothing short of criminal. It's all well and good to say that it's in each states remit to grant reciprocal rights, which doesn't really apply in the case of Ireland, but there appears to have been next to no consideration given to things like health care.

I don't have any sympathy for them to be honest. Everyone that can vote is an adult that should be able to consider the facts before them and the consequences of their vote. The leave propositions were widely trashed before the vote by anyone with an idea of how the world really works.

If you don't want a bad thing to happen, then don't vote for the bad thing. Voting for it and not thinking anything will change, or nothing bad will happen is true exceptionalism.

boege · 13-02-2019 3:02pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

We're currently generating a surplus. However, we will need more generating capacity to replace the older stations and meet future demand projections. The closure of Aughinish Alumina actually provided most of that surplus.

Aughinsh never closed and I believe the US sanctions have now been lifted. Aughinish are also a net supplier of electricity as they built their own 150MW CHP plant on site well over 10 years ago.

Seth Brundle · 13-02-2019 3:10pm

Bertie is over in London at the House of Commons Exiting the European Union Committee telling them of the Irish position...

Former taoiseach Bertie Ahern has told a House of Commons select committee that suggestions the Republic of Ireland “re-join” the UK, leave the European Union or ignore its obligations to protect the EU border, have not gone down very well in Ireland.

...

“One is that the Republic of Ireland unilaterally goes against the requirement of the EU treaties by not carrying out its responsibility to maintain the border of the EU after Brexit. One is that the Republic should just leave the European Union and that would solve all the problems and one which I believe is the subject of a petition to this parliament is that the Republic should re-join the United Kingdom and that would solve all the problems. What’s your impressions of how these various suggestions have been received by the people of Ireland?

Mr Ahern responded: “Well I’ll just be kind and say not very well”.

“Unfortunately we have an 800-year past of difficulties and that’s just a reality of our history.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/bertie-ahern-asked-how-ireland-feels-about-re-joining-the-uk-1.3792355

The HoC line of questioning highlights a complete lack of knowledge of history from the Irish perspective.

robinph · 13-02-2019 3:18pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Bertie is over in London at the House of Commons Exiting the European Union Committee telling them of the Irish position...

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/bertie-ahern-asked-how-ireland-feels-about-re-joining-the-uk-1.3792355

The HoC line of questioning highlights a complete lack of knowledge of history from the Irish perspective.

In fairness to the guy asking the question I think he was asking it only because he knew it was so stupid a bunch of ideas and to get it on the record.

Tell me how · 13-02-2019 3:21pm

robinph wrote: »

I have no sympathy for them whatsoever.

There is absolutely zero reason to think that when asked if you want to remain a member of a club, or not, to think that on voting to leave that club you would continue to have access to the facilities of that club.

I also have zero sympathy for my mother who voted leave and the abuse that I give her whenever possible for doing so. The ignorance behind voting that way despite her children have lived and worked and made benefit of all aspects of the EU, and have children in law are citizens of other EU (and non-EU) countries, and grandkids who are (thankfully) citizens of UK and other EU (and non-EU) countries, but for her to think that a vote to break off connections with the EU will not have direct negative impact on her family. <angry>

It is just astounding how stupid people who are not stupid can be.

That's a red line dude. You crossed it.

Imreoir2 · 13-02-2019 3:27pm

robinph wrote: »

In fairness to the guy asking the question I think he was asking it only because he knew it was so stupid a bunch of ideas and to get it on the record.

Yes, highlighting stupidity rather than suggesting them as realistic solutions.

robinph · 13-02-2019 3:32pm

Tell me how wrote: »

That's a red line dude. You crossed it.

How?

It's a nice and noble idea that you should never disrespect your parents, but just because someone used to wipe my arse for me doesn't mean they are exempt from being called stupid when they do something stupid.

demfad · 13-02-2019 3:33pm

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

It's worse than this. You have a whole plethora of right-wing, foreign funded think tanks suspiciously headquartered on Tufton street. We have no idea who is funding these organisations which in my opinion casts aspersions on their "research".

Shamir Sanni won a case against this group of shadowy Lobbyists for illegally sacking him and a coordinated attack on his character. The illegal action came around him being the whistleblower in Vote Leave's using the Beleave campaign to push an extra £625k into the Vote Leave campaign (paid to AIQ) in the crucial last week. Sanni also accused Stephen Parkinson and Cleo Watson of criminal activity in the fraud. Parkinson and Watson are now advisors for Theresa May. Just before he was due to release the information no 10 pre-released a statement that Sanni was a homosexual and this episode was no-more than a lovers tiff.
Remember also that Gove and Farage were high up in Vote Leave and would have known about the Beleave payment (fraud).

If the 55 Tufton St lobbyist had fought the case they would have had to reveal their funders. So they conceded everything. There must not be an obvious line to this funding.

More in this extract but note that the official Leave campaign Vote Leave used to be based at ....55 Tufton Street.

Let's look at Sam Elliot of Vote Leave and original CEO of Tax Payers Alliance.
He is part of the Heritage Foundation (Rebecah Mercer, Kochs), advisor to Young Britons Foundation (Mercers, Kocks, DeVos etc.).
He was also Chairman of the Conservatives for Russia foundation. Until Nalobin (Elliots Russian counterpart in the group) was expelled for espionage.

The rightwing pressure group the TaxPayers’ Alliance has conceded that it illegally sacked the whistleblower Shahmir Sanni for revealing unlawful overspending in the Brexit referendum campaign, in a case that could have a major impact on how lobbyists are described in the media.

In a development that lawyers have described as “almost unprecedented”, the group has also conceded that it illegally vilified Sanni in the media in coordination with a network of other “linked” organisations.

The alliance has accepted all the allegations Sanni made during his action claiming unfair dismissal, wrongful dismissal, direct discrimination and “dismissal by reason of a philosophical belief in the sanctity of British democracy”.

Significantly, it has also conceded that it is liable for what Sanni’s lawyer, Peter Daly of Bindmans, describes as “extreme public vilification”. Sanni had claimed that it was responsible for a smear attack published by the website Brexit Central, and that it coordinated “derogatory statements” made by the head of Vote Leave, Matthew Elliott, to the media – calling Sanni a “fantasist” (Channel 4) and “so-called whistleblower” (BBC) and claiming that he was guilty of “completely lying” (Sky News)– before an official finding by the Electoral Commission into the conduct of the Brexit referendum.

The disclosure is likely to have far-reaching consequences for the way that broadcasters describe lobby groups. The uncontested claim has stated that the TaxPayers’ Alliance is responsible for Elliott’s Brexit Central website as part of nine “linked” high-profile rightwing “thinktanks” that operate in and around offices at 55 Tufton Street in Westminster and coordinate media and other strategy. [See footnote.]

In Sanni’s case, they also coordinated with Downing Street.

The network includes the Adam Smith Institute, the Centre for Policy Studies, the Institute of Economic Affairs and Leave Means Leave. The shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, is calling for a full inquiry into the groups’ funding and said that in the interests of “openness and accountability” the BBC must make clear they are lobbyists, not thinktanks” as they are sometimes referred to.

In March, Sanni revealed to the Observer massive overspending by the official Vote Leave campaign, which has now been found to be in breach of the law by the Electoral Commission. The day before this was published, Downing Street released a statement that revealed Sanni was gay, and the TaxPayers’ Alliance subsequently sacked him from his job running its social media. It has now conceded in full Sanni’s claims and is liable to pay substantial damages.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/24/brexit-whistleblower-shahmir-sanni-interview-vote-leave-cambridge-analytica

briany · 13-02-2019 3:37pm

robinph wrote: »

There is absolutely zero reason to think that when asked if you want to remain a member of a club, or not, to think that on voting to leave that club you would continue to have access to the facilities of that club.

There is a reason why they thought that - they were told the UK was too important to the EU for the EU to just up and walk away from.

downcow · 13-02-2019 3:38pm

CelticRambler wrote: »

There you go again ... :rolleyes: Re-read what you've written, then think about it this way:
1. An EU negotiating team did go into negotiations knowing that a deal had to be brought back the the EU27 for ratification.
2. to be ratified by 27 different countries
3. each of those 27 different countries has their own internal politics to think about, including several anti-EU parties - some of whom are in government
4. The negotiators came back with a plan that leaves the EU beholden to the UK "indefinitely" - because the backstop works both ways - and guess what? There is unanimous agreement among 27 different countries, with all their differences of opinion, that this is the best possible deal under the circumstances.
5 And on the other side of the table, you have one country, with one parliament that can't even come up with one agreed position within the governing party.

So yeah, we'll accept you saying "tough, accept it". :P You voted to Leave, and you voted for the folks in Westminster; if you don't like what they're doing on your behalf, why is that our problem?

Try answering the question i asked as opposed to the question you want to answer ie
Then if the negotiators had came back with a plan that left EU beholding to the UK indefinitely and the EU27 was disgusted with it and rejected it. Would you accept me saying,tough, this is the WA and the UK will not reopen it (as if it was now closed) and we won't talk about it??

Leroy42 · 13-02-2019 3:44pm

downcow wrote: »

Try answering the question i asked as opposed to the question you want to answer ie
Then if the negotiators had came back with a plan that left EU beholding to the UK indefinitely and the EU27 was disgusted with it and rejected it. Would you accept me saying,tough, this is the WA and the UK will not reopen it (as if it was now closed) and we won't talk about it??

But why deal with a hypotechical like that. The people of the UK were asked a question, and then sent a team off to negotiate.
They have come back with an answer.

But if the EU did negotiate like that, I would expect that should the EU want to reopen they would have sorted out what is acceptable and what they were willing to trade to get it. Neither of these two have the UK done. They want the backstop taken out. So what would they be willing to give back so that the EU can get a 'win'?

Do you think the people should be given the right, as the HoC and you seem to think the UK negotiators should be, to ask the question again.

You want to create all these scenarios rather than deal with the reality. The UK voted to leave. TM,as PM negotiated to leave, but now the MP's and voters seem to want to tear up the usual practices and restart until they get what they deem is acceptable.

Should the EU reopen the negotiations who should they negotiate with? ERG, DUP, Labour?

lawred2 · 13-02-2019 3:53pm

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

I know one or two retired British pensioners in Ireland who are in a similar position. They voted for Brexit and are now trying to get things like hips and knees operated on before the exit and aren't sure if they'll stay because of the drop in value of their pensions. It's all well and good to say that they voted for this without thinking about the unintended consequences, but I do feel quite a bit of sympathy for them. These people were born in the forties and it is a natural tendency to think back on the past with rose tinted glasses. I also think they were shocked, as are most people, with the sheer ineptness of the current UK government.

To be honest it would be sad to see these people leave. The people I've come across generally live in West Clare and Galway and for years have integrated and engaged with the community getting involved in and helping with things like turf cutting, small farming, arts and crafts etc. They've been a great benefit to these rural communities. I don't blame them for their vote, it was their right to vote as they did, but the limbo they've been left in for the past three years by Westminster is nothing short of criminal. It's all well and good to say that it's in each states remit to grant reciprocal rights, which doesn't really apply in the case of Ireland, but there appears to have been next to no consideration given to things like health care.

why do these old people get a free pass on being selfish, ill-informed and thoughtless?

BobbyBobberson · 13-02-2019 4:02pm

lawred2 wrote: »

why do these old people get a free pass on being selfish, ill-informed and thoughtless?

Agreed, on top of that they must be liars. They could not have voted for Brexit if they have lived in Ireland for years assuming years is more than 2.5 years which is how it comes across.

Brexit discussion thread VII (Please read OP before posting)

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