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Biological males in women's sport

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    #1922
    Madeleine Birchfield
    Registered Users Posts: 271 ✭✭Madeleine Birchfield


    ingalway wrote: »
    Non binary

    And where do the non binary belong in sports?


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    #1923
    ingalway
    Registered Users Posts: 652 ✭✭✭ingalway


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    This is an excellent point. It can’t and won’t be conceded. So, women will have to continue challenging it like those very courageous Connecticut teenagers. Anywhere it’s been reported, the support for them seems to be overwhelming though which is so heartening to witness.
    Grass Roots support is building but with so much other stuff going on in the world it's slow going. Unfortunately so many politicians and all the large multinational companies have drunk the Kool aid on this as it's a good look. When they are challenged on facts rather than feelings they shut discussion down. Cancel culture at it's finest.
    I think your advice on staying on sporting topic here is wise as it doesn't take much to be called a biggoted transphobe when you try to raise genuine concerns and get then get banned/cancelled, even when science based facts are given!


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    #1924
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    You do know that Feminists will be one of the groups that will shut down any debate with you on this topic right?

    What? No. There are factions. Some feminists rail against gender ideology. And they were the same ones who fought for sex-based rights, exactly what they are fighting for now. The ones who are critical of gender ideology have stayed consistent. If you think all feminists would “shut down” this debate, you’re undereducated on that particular topic.


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    #1925
    Sir Oxman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,492 ✭✭✭Sir Oxman


    Sidenote:This will be locked as there are a number of moderators banding together with the blessing of the sites owners.
    Obvious hate and disparaging posts (of all posters) should be removed and is actually extremely easy to implement on one thread.

    Any other threads (seperate or encompassing) on the *myriad* of problems now and in the future detailing and debating these issues will also be locked at the behest of a tiny minority of moderators and so-called trans rights activists posters.



    Authoritarian bekinders demand no debate, deplatforming and cancellation.
    Oh and people losing jobs because they should dare to have a legitimate, non-inflammatory, factual opinion that again only a very tiny minority of people demand silencing simply because they do not want the massive flaws & consequences airing in public.


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    #1926
    Dante7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,543 ✭✭✭Dante7


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    You do know that Feminists will be one of the groups that will shut down any debate with you on this topic right?

    Only the ones with the blue hair dye who like getting their baps out at protests. The old schoold, second wave feminists are the ones leading the fight against this nonsense.


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    #1927
    ingalway
    Registered Users Posts: 652 ✭✭✭ingalway


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    You do know that Feminists will be one of the groups that will shut down any debate with you on this topic right?
    I would hope that most Feminists understand the difference between gender and sex. Unfortunately those words have become interchangeable, some might say deliberately, to greatly confuse the matter. Gender is consistently used to stereotype what a woman is/should be. I fit almost none of the generally held stereotypes but I am 100% female even if I'm so called gender non conforming. You can present gender in any way you choose but biological sex is completely different.


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    #1928
    Madeleine Birchfield
    Registered Users Posts: 271 ✭✭Madeleine Birchfield


    ingalway wrote: »
    I would hope that most Feminists understand the difference between gender and sex. Unfortunately those words have become interchangeable, some might say deliberately, to greatly confuse the matter. Gender is consistently used to stereotype what a woman is/should be. I fit almost none of the generally held stereotypes but I am 100% female even if I'm so called gender non conforming. You can present gender in any way you choose but biological sex is completely different.

    Why do feminists still refer to the concept as gender rather than start calling it sex stereotypes? The latter is more accurate and less confusing to the public.


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    #1929
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,175 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    What? No. There are factions. Some feminists rail against gender ideology. And they were the same ones who fought for sex-based rights, exactly what they are fighting for now. The ones who are critical of gender ideology have stayed consistent. If you think all feminists would “shut down” this debate, you’re undereducated on that particular topic.

    I don't believe I am...it's splitting the Labour Party in the UK

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/13/labour-leadership-contenders-split-over-trans-group-pledge-card

    The vast majority on men are on your side.


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    #1930
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,175 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Sir Oxman wrote: »
    Sidenote:This will be locked as there are a number of moderators banding together with the blessing of the sites owners.
    Obvious hate and disparaging posts (of all posters) should be removed and is actually extremely easy to implement on one thread.

    Any other threads (seperate or encompassing) on the *myriad* of problems now and in the future detailing and debating these issues will also be locked at the behest of a tiny minority of moderators and so-called trans rights activists posters.



    Authoritarian bekinders demand no debate, deplatforming and cancellation.
    Oh and people losing jobs because they should dare to have a legitimate, non-inflammatory, factual opinion that again only a very tiny minority of people demand silencing simply because they do not want the massive flaws & consequences airing in public.

    The list of things that can't be discussed publically is growing by the day...lovely liberal society we live in ....right!!!


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    #1931
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    lads stop discussing the modding


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    #1932
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Sir Oxman wrote: »
    Sidenote:This will be locked as there are a number of moderators banding together with the blessing of the sites owners.
    Obvious hate and disparaging posts (of all posters) should be removed and is actually extremely easy to implement on one thread.

    If this thread is locked, it will be really obvious what is going on as it’s stayed on topic. It’ll be for some nebulous reason. Twill be interesting to see what happens.


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    #1933
    Madeleine Birchfield
    Registered Users Posts: 271 ✭✭Madeleine Birchfield


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    The list of things that can't be discussed publically is growing by the day...lovely liberal society we live in ....right!!!

    This is not liberal though, it is transgender integralism.


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    #1934
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    lads stop discussing the modding

    That shouldn’t be a reason to close a thread. Usually that would just be dealt with via an on-thread warning. And we’re not discussing any particular mod action anyway.


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    #1935
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    I don't believe I am...it's splitting the Labour Party in the UK

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/13/labour-leadership-contenders-split-over-trans-group-pledge-card

    The vast majority on men are on your side.

    You are. There is a huge faction of feminists that oppose the encroachment of sex-based rights. They opposed that Labour Party statement too. There was a whole Expel Me campaign around it.


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    #1936
    Madeleine Birchfield
    Registered Users Posts: 271 ✭✭Madeleine Birchfield


    Anyways, we are quite getting off topic.

    Back on topic, does anybody have a solution on with whom non binary people should play athletics? Because I feel whatever is decided by society for the non binary should be extended to transgender people.


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    #1937
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Madeleine Birchfield wrote: »
    Anyways, we are quite getting off topic.

    Back on topic, does anybody have a solution on with whom non binary people should play athletics? Because I feel whatever is decided by society for the non binary should be extended to transgender people.

    I think you’ll struggle to get a straight answer here because the thinking behind it is so woolly.

    Personally, I think we should divide the categories based on biological sex with intersex people being considered on a case by case basis (because intersex people and transgender/non binary people are different except for any intersex person who may identify as transgender, non-binary etc). Anyone who identifies as non-binary still has an underlying biological sex.


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    #1938
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,299 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Madeleine Birchfield wrote: »
    Anyways, we are quite getting off topic.

    Back on topic, does anybody have a solution on with whom non binary people should play athletics? Because I feel whatever is decided by society for the non binary should be extended to transgender people.

    Easy solution really, put all the people who don't really know what they are in one group and let them compete against each other.


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    #1939
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,175 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    You are. There is a huge faction of feminists that oppose the encroachment of sex-based rights. They opposed that Labour Party statement too. There was a whole Expel Me campaign around it.

    Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear, Feminism is splitting as a consequence of this issue, but the Feminists who believe that gender is a social construct are very vocal in their support of that and they are a huge portion of the feminist movement...they are the biggest enemy for young women in sport, because this issue is not about fairness it is ideologically and politically driven....it will be the International Organisations that will ultimately have to fight this out, like I said, The UN are very much on board with gender deconstructionism....they are a powerful lobby group.

    Women need to get vocal....there was way too much silence for the young women who took the case in Connecticut.


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    #1940
    ingalway
    Registered Users Posts: 652 ✭✭✭ingalway


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear, Feminism is splitting as a consequence of this issue, but the Feminists who believe that gender is a social construct are very vocal in their support of that and they are a huge portion of the feminist movement...they are the biggest enemy for young women in sport, because this issue is not about fairness it is ideologically and politically driven....it will be the International Organisations that will ultimately have to fight this out, like I said, The UN are very much on board with gender deconstructionism....they are a powerful lobby group.

    Women need to get vocal....there was way too much silence for the young women who took the case in Connecticut.
    Women are very vocal - take a look at Twitter - it's actually men who need to get more vocal and support us. This is not just a womens issue for them alone to fight for, men need to support their mothers, sisters, daughters, friends and stand up for science and freedom of speech/debate.
    Men have more power and influence in politics, finance, academia, sporting organisations and the corporate world.

    There are many issues in feminism, particularly the current wave, but picking holes in it is just a way to cause further divides. At this stage feminism shouldn't have to fix everything, any person who believes women and girls are entitled to keep their sex based rights, whether it be single sex sports, bathrooms, showers, dorms, changing rooms, hospital wards, refuges, prisons, needs to step up and vocally support that.


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    #1941
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,175 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    ingalway wrote: »
    Women are very vocal - take a look at Twitter - it's actually men who need to get more vocal and support us. This is not just a womens issue for them alone to fight for, men need to support their mothers, sisters, daughters, friends and stand up for science and freedom of speech/debate.
    Men have more power and influence in politics, finance, academia, sporting organisations and the corporate world.

    There are many issues in feminism, particularly the current wave, but picking holes in it is just a way to cause further divides. At this stage feminism shouldn't have to fix everything, any person who believes women and girls are entitled to keep their sex based rights, whether it be single sex sports, bathrooms, showers, dorms, changing rooms, hospital wards, refuges, prisons, needs to step up and vocally support that.

    From what I can see Feminism is destroying more than it's fixing but that is a whole other thread.

    There are a bunch of powerful sportswomen/feminists who should be supporting this but are strangely silent.

    Perhaps what happened to Martina Navratalova didn't help, but very few stood up for her...John McEnroe got admonished for stating the obvious once as well...and this is tennis....where women actually get paid more than men in the Majors.

    Men need to fight their own battles as a consequence of this wave of feminism, as the gap between sex based rights widens even more in health, education, justice and now the workplace where many men face systematic discrimination.

    Also, as a consequence of the metoo movement, men are very cautious over what they say in the workplace or on social media, people are losing their jobs over the most trivial of things...I doubt many have the appetite to risk their livelyhoods as they are walking on eggshells more often than not these days.

    Nobody wants to say it but...there is a consequence to educating young women in particular that gender is a social construct imposed by the Patriarchy that must be torn down...I believe it is the law of unintended consequences...


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    #1942
    ingalway
    Registered Users Posts: 652 ✭✭✭ingalway


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    From what I can see Feminism is destroying more than it's fixing but that is a whole other thread.

    There are a bunch of powerful sportswomen/feminists who should be supporting this but are strangely silent.

    Perhaps what happened to Martina Navratalova didn't help, but very few stood up for her...John McEnroe got admonished for stating the obvious once as well...and this is tennis....where women actually get paid more than men in the Majors.

    Men need to fight their own battles as a consequence of this wave of feminism, as the gap between sex based rights widens even more in health, education, justice and now the workplace where many men face systematic discrimination.

    Also, as a consequence of the metoo movement, men are very cautious over what they say in the workplace or on social media, people are losing their jobs over the most trivial of things...I doubt many have the appetite to risk their livelyhoods as they are walking on eggshells more often than not these days.

    Nobody wants to say it but...there is a consequence to educating young women in particular that gender is a social construct imposed by the Patriarchy that must be torn down...I believe it is the law of unintended consequences...
    Ah, I understand now. Everything and anything is all women's fault and we can't be expecting the men folk to be helping us out now because they've got way too much going on.
    Getting an education was our downfall, getting all those notions about equality. If we'd just stayed at home and minded the children none of us would be in this mess.


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    #1943
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear, Feminism is splitting as a consequence of this issue, but the Feminists who believe that gender is a social construct are very vocal in their support of that and they are a huge portion of the feminist movement...they are the biggest enemy for young women in sport, because this issue is not about fairness it is ideologically and politically driven....it will be the International Organisations that will ultimately have to fight this out, like I said, The UN are very much on board with gender deconstructionism....they are a powerful lobby group.

    Women need to get vocal....there was way too much silence for the young women who took the case in Connecticut.

    Gotcha. I do agree. There are too many women who seem happy for our hard won rights to given away right before our eyes.

    One thing I will say is that so called gender critical feminists also believe gender is a construct but for them that means that a man can't become a woman and vice versa because that change is to them based on stereotyping.


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    #1944
    Silentcorner
    Registered Users Posts: 6,175 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    ingalway wrote: »
    Ah, I understand now. Everything and anything is all women's fault and we can't be expecting the men folk to be helping us out now because they've got way too much going on.
    Getting an education was our downfall, getting all those notions about equality. If we'd just stayed at home and minded the children none of us would be in this mess.

    What???

    I didn't say or allude to anything of the sort and well you know it....

    I said their is a consequence to educating young women, as it is by some margin young women who are taking 3rd level courses (Gender/Womens Studies)that are effectively indoctrinating them into wild theories about gender deconstruction and Patriarchal Oppression Theory as these very theories have played a huge role in where we find ourselves today.

    Are feminists ever held accountable for their actions?....actually, never mind, stupid question!!!


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    #1945
    Dante7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,543 ✭✭✭Dante7


    The tide is turning on this. Yesterday was a huge day in the war, all thanks to JK Rowling. JK inadvertently pasted the contents of her clipboard into a tweet where she compared a trans woman called Wolf, who was in court for attacking a elderly feminist, to a monster in her new book. The pronoun brigade lost their **** as usual, but this time something different happened. Instead of backing down to the baying mob and issuing an apology, JK basically told them to go **** themselves and she issued legal warnings which has so far resulted in a woke BC Green party member and Adrian Harrop retracting tweets and issuing apologies. JK then replied to Fionne Orlander, who is a very reasonable transexual, who fights against gender Woo, offering to meet her. It was a real two fingers to the TRAs, who have suddenly become very silent. In the twitter spats I have been involved in since have been more muted. I have not received the usual pile ons insulting me and my children. The beardy woke bros seemed to slink off. I truly believe that this is a major turning point. Thank you JK.


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    #1946
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    The legal action threatened was actually in relation to a tweet somebody made saying that JK was not to be trusted around children. The typo tweet got dragged into it because people were trying to use it as evidence that she was not defamed because she had sent a tweet to a child with a swearword in it and apparently that made what the other tweeter said true. Even though it was very clear that it was a typo.

    JK has never kowtowed to anyone on this subject.


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    #1947
    kildare lad
    Registered Users Posts: 2,010 ✭✭✭kildare lad


    I looks like rugby has some sense and might be banning transgender men from playing against women . I've nothing against trans people but the line has to be drawn when it comes to sport .

    https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jul/19/transwomen-face-potential-womens-rugby-ban-over-safety-concerns?CMP=share_btn_tw&__twitter_impression=true


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    #1948
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,539 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    IF we go full circle and we may as well now as its the only way people will see how unfair ad stupid this is , so I think the answer is to have no "women only " sports as its sexiest,

    So every sport is all inclusive your either good enough or your not regardless of what sex you are or you want to be

    Do that and people will realise a lot quicker call how ridicules this is


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    #1949
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,287 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    kildare lad wrote: »
    I looks like rugby has some sense and might be banning transgender men from playing against women . I've nothing against trans people but the line has to be drawn when it comes to sport .

    https://amp.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jul/19/transwomen-face-potential-womens-rugby-ban-over-safety-concerns?CMP=share_btn_tw&__twitter_impression=true

    Saw an Aussie rules trans woman, possible career ending impacts where a normal tackle as far as he was concerned and they were when he was playing on a men's team.


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    #1950
    kildare lad
    Registered Users Posts: 2,010 ✭✭✭kildare lad


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    IF we go full circle and we may as well now as its the only way people will see how unfair ad stupid this is , so I think the answer is to have no "women only " sports as its sexiest,

    So every sport is all inclusive your either good enough or your not regardless of what sex you are or you want to be

    Do that and people will realise a lot quicker call how ridicules this is

    Then you'd have no women professional athletes .


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    #1951
    kildare lad
    Registered Users Posts: 2,010 ✭✭✭kildare lad


    Danzy wrote: »
    Saw an Aussie rules trans woman, possible career ending impacts where a normal tackle as far as he was concerned and they were when he was playing on a men's team.

    Ye I seen him/her , he was about a foot taller and 5 stone heavier than all the ladies . It looked bloody ridiculous


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